Grenfell Tower fire

[Tommok]

RaoulD - I do know the area very well and I also have considerable experience of how blocks like Grenfell are populated, with people both on and off the record. So I'm fully appreciative of the difficulties in assessing who was living there, who was there at the time of the fire and who might have perished.

 

I'm also fully aware that a fire of that kind in a block of that kind will certainly have lead to many more deaths than we have been told about.

 

Whatever the information you are privy to that you can't share is, you will know as well as I do (maybe more so) that more accurate information pertaining to this could have been officially released far quicker than it has been.

 

Your last line is rather odd and I believe totally incorrect - the total number of victims being reported accurately does very much matter to those people that are trying to find out whether loved ones were affected because they will also know that the numbers released so far are willfully short of the reality and they will be more concerned than anyone that there appears to have been be a concerted effort to manage or manipulate the information so far.

Edited June 29, 2017 by TommoK

[Romario]

 

Cuts to legal aid may have stopped tenants in Grenfell Tower from pursuing safety concerns that could have prevented the fire, the president of the Law Society, Robert Bourns, has suggested.

His comments, made at the launch of a report on access to justice, will revive the political debate over the provision of legal advice and representation to those who are vulnerable and least well off.

“There have been reports that tenants of Grenfell Tower were unable to access legal aid to challenge safety concerns because of the cuts,” Bourns said. “If that is the case then we may have a very stark example of what limiting legal aid can mean.”

 

No 'may' about it - the residents have said that it did.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/legal-aid-cuts-may-have-stopped-grenfell-tenants-pursing-safety-concerns

 

I'm surprised more hasn't been made of the cuts to legal aid. It's a devastating blocker for people. 

[Tosh]

So they know how many people were in 106 of 129 flats: they spoke to occupiers of 106 flats and got ideas of numbers fr0m them

So 23 flats are totally unaccounted for in terms of residents and guests.

[Gilps]

Kensington & Chelsea borough council have banned the public and the press from their meeting tonight.

 

[Case]

.....Your last line is rather odd and I believe totally incorrect - the total number of victims being reported accurately does very much matter to those people that are trying to find out whether loved ones were affected because they will also know that the numbers released so far are willfully short of the reality and they will be more concerned than anyone that there appears to have been be a concerted effort to manage or manipulate the information so far.

Not for me to speak for RaoulD, but my take on what he meant is that the number of those who died, any number, is unimportant in and of itself, to individuals who are still trying to locate their own relatives or friends who may have perished.

 

Could be wrong. If so, apologies.

[RaoulD]

You're right Case. The numbers being reported are those known to be in the block at the time who are either confirmed dead or unaccounted for. There are still investigations about missing people where there is no confirmation that they were in the block at the time of the fire and it is these people that friends and relatives are enquiring about. I cannot be more specific as the information I have was given in confidence.

You're right Case. The numbers being reported are those known to be in the block at the time who are either confirmed dead or unaccounted for. There are still investigations about missing people where there is no confirmation that they were in the block at the time of the fire and it is these people that friends and relatives are enquiring about. I cannot be more specific as the information I have was given in confidence.

[Jarg Armani]

How many people are missing?

[RaoulD]

How many people are missing?

 

Don't know as I am not responsible for the recording the numbers of reports and I am not aware of all of the investigations going on at the moment. I am really a very small cog in an enormous wheel. The number of reports will still be an unreliable guide to the actual numbers missing as a result of the fire. Hundreds of people go missing every day for a multitude of reasons, particularly in a city the size of London, and an incident such as this often leads to enquiries about people who have simply not made contact with friends or family since the fire. Sifting through all the reports of missing people itself takes time and this is why the absence of a definitive record of who was in the building means that there is no precise figure that the police can give beyond those who they have confirmed are dead and those missing who have been placed in the building at the time of the fire.

[Molby]

couldn't a website have been knocked up?

 

basically somewhere people can register their loved ones as suspected missing, suspected perished in the fire, with a bit of a backstory?

 

the idea is to try to find people who lived there or were staying there, but were not registered

 

could be anything from visiting guests, to illegal immigrants crowded into an apartment that was made for 4, but actually housed 20, for example, and their families at home have no idea what to do to trace them - they could at least go on the site and post up what they know

[RaoulD]

couldn't a website have been knocked up?

 

basically somewhere people can register their loved ones as suspected missing, suspected perished in the fire, with a bit of a backstory?

 

the idea is to try to find people who lived there or were staying there, but were not registered

 

could be anything from visiting guests, to illegal immigrants crowded into an apartment that was made for 4, but actually housed 20, for example, and their families at home have no idea what to do to trace them - they could at least go on the site and post up what they know

 

There is a special police number for family and friends to report concerns about loved ones for this purpose. A website does not give the police the opportunity to interview the person making the report and would only slow down the process as the police would need to contact each person posting for the information they require to investigate.

[Molby]

There is a special police number for family and friends to report concerns about loved ones for this purpose. A website does not give the police the opportunity to interview the person making the report and would only slow down the process as the police would need to contact each person posting for the information they require to investigate.

fair enough but the police are not necessarily being trusted with the task of getting the info out, or enabling such, as they are part of the establishment

and with regard to unidentified bodies, what can they do in the case I described?

a forum is open, and allows people to say "yes I know him, he was staying at apartment 25" or whatever

 

which is in itself a brutal and clunky way to get info and fraught with pitfalls but it might help people that otherwise might never get any satisfactory info

 

all this btw, because of reports from the residents

I wouldn't have assumed that so many people could be unaccounted for but what's come to light is:

 

1 the illegal immigrant/sofa surfer aspect

2 Its plausible that the scale of the disaster is not something the govt want to share right now, if ever

3 the residents themselves don't seem to believe the official numbers

[Gilps]

The press got a court order granting them access to council meeting tonight, so the council let them in and promptly cancelled the meeting.

[Tosh]

How does one get rid of councillors outside of elections?

[Tommok]

The press got a court order granting them access to council meeting tonight, so the council let them in and promptly cancelled the meeting.

The K&C council is really making a shambles of this, PR wise if nothing else, this is really not going to alleviate any of the concerns about a cover up.

 

Altho not perfect, at least when Camden evacuated the blocks of flats - the Council leader, Georgia Gould, actually went down there and spoke to all of the residents individually to apologise and reassure them.

[kop205]

The press got a court order granting them access to council meeting tonight, so the council let them in and promptly cancelled the meeting.

 

Brilliant. Unaccountable c****.

[New York Red]

How does one get rid of councillors outside of elections?

The gallows?

[muleskinner]

There is some interesting bits on @fi_rutherford timeline about what went on at the council tonight

[Earl Hafler]

i think the problem is that the intensity ofthe fire and how long it burned for will mean there is very little if anything left of the poor souls inside. a cremation usually only takes 4 hours. thsi place burned for a day and a half. But i do agree the numbers seem very low, i cant see how they cant say" theres x amount confirmed dead and we believe there are a further x amount still missing"

 

But at what point do you admit that the amount of people missing = the amount of people dead.

 

6 months ?!

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

don't think they do. They only deal with certainties with death

 

Bet the insurers will push back in terms of life cover (which most likely didn't have) and criminal comp

[Molby]

The insurance companies?

 

If people aren't happy with the council, the govt, etc

Pay careful attention to what the insurers do

 

People gonna get f***ed over left right and centre

[pipnasty]

The Guardian saying that it was the council who asked the contractors to change the cladding to cheaper, less fire retardant version.

[D.Boon]

QT last night with a co ordinated attack on Corbyn for politicising this. Never been to Hastings but f*** me if the audience is representative of the area I'll steer well clear.

[Jarg Armani]

QT last night with a co ordinated attack on Corbyn for politicising this. Never been to Hastings but f*** me if the audience is representative of the area I'll steer well clear.

The BBC have been as bad as ever this week. Their headline about the Tories voting down payrises for the public sector was something like 'conservatives say they may consider pay rises later in the year'

[D.Boon]

The Guardian saying that it was the council who asked the contractors to change the cladding to cheaper, less fire retardant version.

Its a bit misleading that article. Both types have the same fire rating. Both types have the same polyethylene core. The only difference I can see is the asthetic one of zinc being more attractive and expensive than aluminium.

[pipnasty]

Its a bit misleading that article. Both types have the same fire rating. Both types have the same polyethylene core. The only difference I can see is the asthetic one of zinc being more attractive and expensive than aluminium.

 

Yeah, they are quite straight about it;

 

"Fire-resistant zinc cladding approved by residents of Grenfell Tower was replaced in the refurbishment contract with more flammable aluminium panels to save £293,368, according to documents seen by the Guardian."