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EU Referendum

EU Referendum  

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no brainer unless you are a brain dead little Englander who still thinks the empire is a thing

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The media making the whole thing out as if it's all about immigration would be laughable if it wasn't dangerously xenophobic.

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I'm against borders in general and therefore instinctively pro-EU.

But I don't think the Stay campaign has made convincing practical arguments yet.

And the EU is still a massively flawed set of institutions.

Edited by Kvarme Ate My Food

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no brainer unless you are a brain dead little Englander who still thinks the empire is a thing

 

Instinctively I think we should maybe leave (I guess depending on terms of exit and how our relationship with Europe goes forward). I've refused to take this stance before largely because of what you say, I didn't want to be associated with Farage and the Nazi right. But the argument is there to be had now, then I see who's for leaving and don't feel comfortable being in bed with Gove, Grayling and Duncan Smith either. So it's a strange one, if the likes of them thunk we should leave my default reaction would be to stay but my gut feeling is that Europe is sliding into all kinds of sh*t and we should get out. Probably..

Edited by Murphman

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Apparently one of Gove's major gripes was when EU rules affected his decisions to change our education system. Christ knows how far he would have gone if he had carte blanche - it's a genuinely scary thought.

 

If Johnson sides with the out campaign later today this could eventually be the end for Cameron.

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Apparently one of Gove's major gripes was when EU rules affected his decisions to change our education system. Christ knows how far he would have gone if he had carte blanche - it's a genuinely scary thought.

 

If Johnson sides with the out campaign later today this could eventually be the end for Cameron.

Hilarious to imagine that Johnsons decision will be based on anything other than his own prospects too.

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Flounce

 

Then come back in when we get what we want

The only issue I care about is the one that leads to decent quality fruit veg meat and fish being on sale in local high streets again and small scale farming being viable again

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Stay. For a whole host of reasons but principally because the rapid erosion of workers' rights that would happen in Britain that was outside the EU would be horrific.

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I think it's going to be an interesting campaign, but not convinced it will be very close yet.

 

Seems obvious that status quo is strong, but biggest problem leave have is they can't decide what the main reason for going is. One camp is the Gove side, it being all about sovereignty for good or bad, the other Farage lot making it all about an immigration fantasy. The one that's not getting off the ground is the anti-corporate agenda, which would make it close

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Ah, but Farage has got that nice Mr Galloway on board. Game changer.

 

CbpUhE3W0AATlaf.jpg

 

 

Hilarious to imagine that Johnsons decision will be based on anything other than his own prospects too.

 

Big element of that from Gove too. With the views of the conservative party membership being what they are, they all know that regardless of the actual referendum result, just being the leadership candidate who campaigned to leave will be enough when the vote's put to the membership.

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Stay. For a whole host of reasons but principally because the rapid erosion of workers' rights that would happen in Britain that was outside the EU would be horrific.

I get this argument, but I'm uncomfortable with it - it's as though we're prepared to forego democracy when doing so advances the policies we want.

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I get this argument, but I'm uncomfortable with it - it's as though we're prepared to forego democracy when doing so advances the policies we want.

Yes, although I'd rather be uncomfortable with the method by which we reach a good outcome than comfortable with the method that leads to a bad one. In this case though, that continued protection of workers' rights would be as a result of a democratic vote to stay anyway.

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Obviously the right are protected from us getting our way by the Lords, and the monarchy, and the military.

We're protected from them getting their way by the EU. (Which also prevents the extreme left from getting its way.)

 

I don't want us to leave the EU but I worry we're a bit dishonest or at least inconsistent in our arguments.

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I'm interested to see whether there is a legitimate argument to be formed from the left for leaving the EU. e.g. Channelling the money we spend on EU integration instead to public sector development projects or green energy projects, making UK a leader in new-age technologies. 

 

 

Fully expect the Leave side to be all UKIPpy but I think you can be anti-EU but pro-Europe. 

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Apparently one of Gove's major gripes was when EU rules affected his decisions to change our education system. Christ knows how far he would have gone if he had carte blanche - it's a genuinely scary thought.

 

If Johnson sides with the out campaign later today this could eventually be the end for Cameron.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/michael-gove-why-im-backing-leave/

 

He's all over the f***ing place.

 

I can understand the antipathy around EU wastage and corruption, but the notion that they're handcuffing this current shower in Westminster alone makes it a stay vote.

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Does anyone have a reliable source for the amount of money leaving the UK economy via child benefit compared to to tax tactics deployed by Google et al?

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I get this argument, but I'm uncomfortable with it - it's as though we're prepared to forego democracy when doing so advances the policies we want.

 

I think you've answered this in your next post I don't think there needs to be any inconsistency in our arguments. Democracy is subject to various constraints, like those you refer to below, but it's okay to argue in favour of particular constraints and against others given that they are instrumentally different. As long as you don't make the claim that all constraints on democracy are bad you're alright.

 

I'm interested to see whether there is a legitimate argument to be formed from the left for leaving the EU. e.g. Channelling the money we spend on EU integration instead to public sector development projects or green energy projects, making UK a leader in new-age technologies. 

 

Fully expect the Leave side to be all UKIPpy but I think you can be anti-EU but pro-Europe. 

 

I think it's a lot harder to make the case from the left than it was, largely because of the protections afforded workers. 

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