Rafa to go...the Liverpool Way?

[Chewie]

I think it's finished.... very hard to admit to this but I think his time is up, and even with that I fear the future without him as I'm not sure who will come in with the yanks at the helm, so before I get to why I think it is up (and as a possible counter to my own thoughts...) let me thank Rafa for...

 

1. Two trophies in an amazing blur of optimism in his first couple of years,

2. Repeatedly tonking the scum...

3. Fernando Torres & Xabi Alonso (tho I blame him for the latter as well), Pepe Reina - 3 absolute stars

4. staying tough in the middle of a very difficult working environment

5. pushing the scum for the title last season

6. Re-enhancing our European pedigree...

 

thank you Rafa, but here's the downside and why i believe the Rafalution has gone stale, possibly beyond repair...

 

1. Tactics - when Rafa arrived we started playing this 4-2-3-1 formation. It was new, it was fresh, it was solid and creative. It's now 5 years old, others have worked it out and we don't seem to have a plan B. Instead, we have built a team around the '1' at the spearhead, flogging a racehorse like a carthorse and being unable to vary our options. Supposedly we cannot buy someone simply to be Torres understudy, but that seems to presume we will only ever play one way....it looks very tired, and very flat...

 

2. Man Management - 3 examples of handling players that I don't understand. Crouch was backed to the hilt when he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, and when he started scoring was mainly benched in his last season. Keane did not start well and looked out of place, but just when he found some form he was benched. This I don't understand. We buy Aquilanim, are afraid to play him in a losing team, he plays for 3-4 games when we get results, starts to pick up the pace a little and then gets benched in a game like last night. This I don't understand...

 

3. Squad development - now in certain areas here I could make an argument for and against, but there are a couple of glaring facts that can't be ignored...but going through the team I would say

 

GK - we have developed and thankfully have one of the best in the world

RB - not sure that Johnson is really a progression on Finnan or Arbeloa and not at that price

LB - not sure that Insua or Aurelio are really an improvement on Riise

CB - I think moderate improvement has been made tho carra is ageing and we miss Sami badly

 

CM - Up to last year we were abolsutely boss...but losing Alonso and developing Gerrard to the point where he has forgotten how to play there means we now look very light....

LM - Reira gives same balance and inconsistency with form and injuries that Kewell did

RM - this position for the last 10 years has been filled by failed forwards - Heskey, Diouf, Kuyt etc

AM - Gerrard's development has been great, Benni is good.....prob overall improvement

 

FW - Torres an absolute star but the lack of quality back-up/support/alternatives at our club now is pure negligent, especially at a club that seems to have provided half the premier league with their strikers - most if not all of whom would give us something we don't have at the minute....in the last 5 years we have seen the following go, or come and go - Heskey, Owen, Baros, Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy, Keane, FSP, Mellor and I think we have regressed. this has been the major flaw in the plan!

 

4. Motivation - it has been said by others that Rafa needs a large turnover of players to provide injection and energy into his team. I don't understand what this means but can see the enormous turnover to back up the theory and also the limited scope for such a turnover in the future with financial constraints. I fear we will simply go stale. And no matter how bad the scum are playing and no matter how much I lament his presence, Slur Alex never settles for a bore draw - they will play to win...

 

5. the liverpool Way etc etc...there is an argument that we don't chop and change managers, that we do things differently and so on. This is myopic, rose-tinted nonsense. The Liverpool way was to win football matches and as a result win trophies. Period. Success came because we didn't spend our time dwelling on the last win, the last cup. There was a haunting flag at one of the Chelsea games thats aid something about making history, not talking about it. I love the fields of Anfield Road, the songs of the past, but the trouble is that we then live in the past. We had Heighway on teh wing, dreams and songs to sing. Well, where are those dreams and songs now...cos if Heighway wasn't producing he'd be out the door. We exist to win football games and football trophies. Before we came along under Shankly the likes of burnley and so on were great teams. No one has a right to permanent success. If we stand still we'll move back and City will overtake us. Period. They have the money and the resouces...oh, but you can't buy history we cry...fair enough, but whilst we're talking about the good old days they and others like them will be living in the good old days. There is a Liverpool Way. It's called being succesful and progressing, not standing still.

 

I fear Rafa's time has come. We look a spent force, a team that damns itself by raising their game on occasion as if to prove that we are a cup team who can mix it with others for just about 90 minutes but not significantly. The mis-handling of Alonso was negligent, the failure to provide support for Torres just blindness, the results self-evident and the team self-destructive. Perhaps the man might yet prove me and others wrong...if he is to be kept on I will happily chew on my every word. I'm not concerned with being right or being vindicated. I'm simply being concerned with whatever it will take to make us tick again. Right now, on balance, that looks like a new man in charge.

 

Chewie

[Conrad]

Excellent post, and well balanced. Agree with a lot of that.

[smithdown]

If, and it's still a big if, we can't afford to keep hold of the likes of Benayoun then it doesn't matter who is in charge. He's our Heighway. How would Shanks have dealt with him being sold and not replaced?

[Andy @ Allerton]

I think that Rafa will be gone. I also think we're going to be utterly fecked when he does. If it's true about Benayoun being sold, I can't see any reason why the yanks won't sell Gerrard, Torres and anyone else we can get mega-bucks for. The new chap will undoubtably be a cringing 'yes man' (Why would the yanks need someone else that will give them trouble) and probably will be English to pander to the Xenophobic media.

 

I'd expect someone like Allardyce, Mark Hughes, Curbishley, Roy Hodgeson or the like.

 

With the English media if you're British then you get a lot less grief and a lot more positive spin.

[AnfieldWestGaffer]

Regardless of whether you want him to stay or go, the reader of that must agree to some pretty sound arguments.

[drdooom]

I agree with pretty much everything in that post. And to add something about squad development. It's true that he's gotten his money back for quite a lot of the players that have been moved on but when Bellamy or Keane or Pennant are sent packing after a season and a half (or just a half)... Even if you haven't lost (much) money on them you've still lost time needed to find the right player that can stay around. The net spend calculations don't take that into account.

Edited January 27, 2010 by drdooom

[johngibo YPC]

Regardless of whether you want him to stay or go, the reader of that must agree to some pretty sound arguments.

 

I welcome anything on here that is thought out and well constructed at the moment. So well done to Chewie for writing it. Although some decent points were raised with regards to Rafa's 'mistakes', point 5 overlooks off the field problems to a ridiculous extent

[Redray]

This was on another site a few weeks back. Seems even more relevant now;

 

 

 

 

 

MAY 1970

 

Liverpool are simply not good enough. Knocked out of the League Cup in Round 3 by Manchester City, embarrassed in Europe against Setubal and humiliated by 2nd Division Watford in the F.A. Cup, we somehow limped to a lowly 5th position in the League. All this from a team carrying so many expectations of a genuine title challenge following last year's 2nd placed finish. Instead we have gone backwards, collapsing down amongst the also-rans, beaten 11 TIMES in the League alone! Surely for a club of Liverpool's stature this is unacceptable and something must change.

 

Many of the players in the squad are either no longer good enough, or simply never were to begin with. There are suggestions that Shankly has several promising youngsters who show signs of progressing, but we need quality players now, not sometime in the future. We must also question the training/coaching methods at the club, given the continued poor performances and bad results - maybe the players are not coached properly to begin with - so perhaps a change of manager and backroom staff will revitalize them. The fact remains that this season has been a shambles, with one terrible result following another; the real question is, can Bill Shankly recover from this situation and return us to where we belong, or has he run out of ideas and the time has come to replace him?

 

I will always be grateful for what Shanks has achieved for this club. He rescued us from the doldrums in Division 2 and brought us two League titles and an F.A. Cup, but that was a long time ago, and only the most loyal fans could see this team regaining such glorious success. It is 4 YEARS since we won anything, during which time our main rivals have won the League and European Cup. Do you really think this team is capable of beating the best sides in Europe when we can't even progress beyond SETUBAL! Yes he produced some wonderful memories for all of us - perhaps he was the right man for the job to bring us from Division 2 and return us to the expectation of trophy success - but as with lots of other managers, it's possible he's taken us as far as he can. Maybe we need a fresh perspective to take the next step towards winning the League AND European Cup (the one we all want if we're honest). There are many other great managers out there including Ramsey (World Cup winner) and Busby (former LFC Captain, so would probably be interested). Perhaps one of these or even any top manager would be able to take us further than Shankly.

 

I'm sure many fans' views on this matter are clear one way or the other, but for any of those who still cannot decide if Shankly should be sent back to Scotland, or given time to turn this around, I'll summarize a few key points:

 

For the sack:

 

- Been here for ages but this team simply not good enough

- Haven't won ANYTHING for 4 years

- Rivals won League and European Cup as we languish in no-man's-land

- Defeats to WATFORD and SETUBAL are unacceptable for Liverpool

- If we delay sacking him, the great manager we need may be unavailable

- Last season we finished second so WHERE IS THE TITLE CHALLENGE?

- Gone backwards under Shanks since early successes and no nearer title

- We haven't signed ANY world-class players lately while rivals have many

- If we delay any longer there may be nothing left to rebuild

- At any other top club he'd have been sacked ages ago

 

For giving him time:

 

+ He achieved great success before therefore can do it again

+ We are Liverpool fans; we are not impatient, disloyal and short-sighted

+ Responsible for some of our greatest ever achievements

+ 'Put Liverpool on world map' as a great club

+ Signed some brilliant players some of whom are already legends

+ Believes in putting the fans and players BEFORE the board/owners

+ Loves this club and as gutted as the fans over current woes

+ He's won 2 League titles before, of course he can do it again

+ Made us one of Europe's top sides and beaten great teams several times

+ Never had as much money to spend as some rivals yet still won big trophies

+ There ARE some good youngsters coming through, lets see what they do

+ Big changes produce more turmoil than success historically

 

Whatever your opinion I believe the time has come to make up our minds:

 

Are we happy being also-rans or do we want the success we deserve? If we fail to make the correct decision, just imagine what the rest of the Seventies may yield for this wonderful club. Instead of League titles and (hopefully) European Cups, we may become just another top-flight team whose only successes occurred so long ago that our younger fans will never taste the glory of winning a major trophy. We may even fall back down to the 2nd Division! Bill Shankly was the right man at the right time for Liverpool, but has his tenure come to its natural conclusion? Do we need to ACT NOW before we spend decades regretting what might have been?

 

--------------------

[owenthomas]

i actually agree with a lot of it too but i think something that's overlooked - and not just by Chewie here - is, and it's brought up by Chewie himself... "There is a Liverpool Way. It's called being succesful and progressing, not standing still."... this isn't just a Liverpool Way.. this is every clubs way.. and other clubs have better resources than us now.. our 'net spend' (sorry) shows that we can't really compete at the top level anymore.. our high turnover of players is due to the fact that it's highly unlikely the manager can go out and buy his first choice player for each position and therefore he has to get in some half-arsed player to fill a void for (what is usually) the short term.. this is actually something that i feel Rafa's tried to stop now but it's left us really short in the depth of the squad..

 

i'm pissed off with the season as much as the next man but i'm backing Rafa still as i can't see how getting someone new in can improve things (other than maybe a short term pick up in the results we get).. i've got to believe that the progress we've made over the last five years - and despite no title in that time there has been progress - will continue when everyone is back fit, confident and playing to their capacity (something i can't remember being the case at any point during the season).. despite a miserable 5/6 months the previous years mean that he gets more time from me as i know he can do, he's proved he can do it.. another season after this, properly backed in the transfer market (as he will definitely need to be) and i'll take it from there - for now, the Liverpool Way to me means backing the manager and team through the storm.. there's a golden sky at the end of it! ;-)

 

"Are we happy being also-rans or do we want the success we deserve" - the success we deserve? like all clubs? we need to stop living in the past and understand that football has fkin changed.. in a big way.. we're not guaranteed anything ffs..

[johnc]

a well written post with some good replies. I think it sums up the sentiment of genuine Liverpool fans - torn with loyalty for the manager, players etc and genuinely trying to make sense of the current situation. I agree with Chewie's post and like him would love to be prooved wrong. We all do have a soft spot for Rafa but for how long. Last night was just another in a long list of lows this season and with all due respect to Wolves - it was just Wolves a very ordinary team

[Flasher]

Good thread with some good points.

[Damian_de]

Points 1-4 in my opinion are all pretty meaningless conjecture. Point 5 isn't bad.

[JRC]

Really well thought out and presented. If I was being picky....

 

1. Tactics - What excited me in the early days, even in that first season in the league at times, was that we didn't play one particular way, certainly not, as I recall, 4-2-3-1 exclusively. (How fun was it to see us line up with 3 CB at Newcastle by surprise one season (2005-6 iirc), and absolutely tonk them?). If that formation were now 5 years old, it would follow that it had got tired/found out by now, but that wouldn't really fit with the evidence of it being the most thrilling attacking formation we have had (and arguably in the league at the time) barely 6 months ago. But I agree that we now seem to be in a bind as to cover and/or alternatives because of it - again, though, wasn't that the idea behind the failed/never realised Barry/Keane experiment?

 

2. Man Management. Crouch was well-backed (man-managed) at first, but I do think the change was a 2-way thing - Crouch not happy to be 2nd fiddle to Torres, the partnership option looking terrible, some stories of attitude problems. He has moved pretty regularly in his career. Keane I pretty well full on disagree - any evidence of him finding form was pretty slight imo, and despite my own genuine belief he was ideal for us when he signed, he got the chances and failed to step up big style, as his subsequent Spurs career seems to be confirming.

 

Like you say there are arguments either way on 3, 4 is speculative, but I would disagree on 5. We are about winning trophies, but also about considered and sensible management. It isn't about giving managers time simply becasue we are nice and sentimental, it's about not being short-term and putting your faith in those you believe have the capacity and capability to do the right thing. The Shankly piece above makes the same point. Forgive the familiar comparison, but I believe - and I think it was argued at the time in some of the press - that on appointing Ferguson, the Utd board took a clear decision to adopt 'The Liverpool Way' and back their chosen man in the way that Smith and Robinson would, despite the inevitable pressure from an expectant fan base and media eager to turn the screw on the incumbent if early results didn't stack up. Of course they were proved right becasue Ferguson was the right man, whilst we were probably too lenient ourselves with Souness for example (who wasn't), so it's not an immutable given that the manager has to be allowed as long as he wants. But I do think it's about a longer perspective that acknowledges some dark days will inevitably come along, and working through them.

 

Sadly I concur that it may well now be the case that Rafa's time has come, maybe by the end of the season - although I'm not without hope or even faith that it can change between now and then - but I am not convinced that the potential alternatives - especially given who is to make that selection, and the circumstances that they will bring that alternative in to - offer a greater reason to be any more optimistic looking forward.

[David Hodgson]

This was on another site a few weeks back. Seems even more relevant now;

 

 

 

 

 

MAY 1970

 

Liverpool are simply not good enough. Knocked out of the League Cup in Round 3 by Manchester City, embarrassed in Europe against Setubal and humiliated by 2nd Division Watford in the F.A. Cup, we somehow limped to a lowly 5th position in the League. All this from a team carrying so many expectations of a genuine title challenge following last year's 2nd placed finish. Instead we have gone backwards, collapsing down amongst the also-rans, beaten 11 TIMES in the League alone! Surely for a club of Liverpool's stature this is unacceptable and something must change.

 

Many of the players in the squad are either no longer good enough, or simply never were to begin with. There are suggestions that Shankly has several promising youngsters who show signs of progressing, but we need quality players now, not sometime in the future. We must also question the training/coaching methods at the club, given the continued poor performances and bad results - maybe the players are not coached properly to begin with - so perhaps a change of manager and backroom staff will revitalize them. The fact remains that this season has been a shambles, with one terrible result following another; the real question is, can Bill Shankly recover from this situation and return us to where we belong, or has he run out of ideas and the time has come to replace him?

 

I will always be grateful for what Shanks has achieved for this club. He rescued us from the doldrums in Division 2 and brought us two League titles and an F.A. Cup, but that was a long time ago, and only the most loyal fans could see this team regaining such glorious success. It is 4 YEARS since we won anything, during which time our main rivals have won the League and European Cup. Do you really think this team is capable of beating the best sides in Europe when we can't even progress beyond SETUBAL! Yes he produced some wonderful memories for all of us - perhaps he was the right man for the job to bring us from Division 2 and return us to the expectation of trophy success - but as with lots of other managers, it's possible he's taken us as far as he can. Maybe we need a fresh perspective to take the next step towards winning the League AND European Cup (the one we all want if we're honest). There are many other great managers out there including Ramsey (World Cup winner) and Busby (former LFC Captain, so would probably be interested). Perhaps one of these or even any top manager would be able to take us further than Shankly.

 

I'm sure many fans' views on this matter are clear one way or the other, but for any of those who still cannot decide if Shankly should be sent back to Scotland, or given time to turn this around, I'll summarize a few key points:

 

For the sack:

 

- Been here for ages but this team simply not good enough

- Haven't won ANYTHING for 4 years

- Rivals won League and European Cup as we languish in no-man's-land

- Defeats to WATFORD and SETUBAL are unacceptable for Liverpool

- If we delay sacking him, the great manager we need may be unavailable

- Last season we finished second so WHERE IS THE TITLE CHALLENGE?

- Gone backwards under Shanks since early successes and no nearer title

- We haven't signed ANY world-class players lately while rivals have many

- If we delay any longer there may be nothing left to rebuild

- At any other top club he'd have been sacked ages ago

 

For giving him time:

 

+ He achieved great success before therefore can do it again

+ We are Liverpool fans; we are not impatient, disloyal and short-sighted

+ Responsible for some of our greatest ever achievements

+ 'Put Liverpool on world map' as a great club

+ Signed some brilliant players some of whom are already legends

+ Believes in putting the fans and players BEFORE the board/owners

+ Loves this club and as gutted as the fans over current woes

+ He's won 2 League titles before, of course he can do it again

+ Made us one of Europe's top sides and beaten great teams several times

+ Never had as much money to spend as some rivals yet still won big trophies

+ There ARE some good youngsters coming through, lets see what they do

+ Big changes produce more turmoil than success historically

 

Whatever your opinion I believe the time has come to make up our minds:

 

Are we happy being also-rans or do we want the success we deserve? If we fail to make the correct decision, just imagine what the rest of the Seventies may yield for this wonderful club. Instead of League titles and (hopefully) European Cups, we may become just another top-flight team whose only successes occurred so long ago that our younger fans will never taste the glory of winning a major trophy. We may even fall back down to the 2nd Division! Bill Shankly was the right man at the right time for Liverpool, but has his tenure come to its natural conclusion? Do we need to ACT NOW before we spend decades regretting what might have been?

 

--------------------

 

 

This is so much b*llocks. Shankly's achievements before 1970 far eclipse Rafa's with Liverpool. Outside of a CL win when the team weren't good enough to be called Champions of Europe in his first season, we have won next to nothing as a club during Rafa's tenure. There have been some exciting and promising seasons, but none that compare with the achievements of hauling us out of the old second division and making us Champions of England twice. Those kind of achievements buy you some grace. Zero league titles, one CL and an FA Cup don't.

 

Shankly was like Clough. He took a team that literally had nothing going for it (not one that had qualified for the CL as Rafa inherited) and brought it up to the top level, and then more or less made it THE best team in the country for about 4 years (initially). It was job done. Mission accomplished. Holy grail gained. Rafa has done well but it's insulting to our history to compare him to Shanks in this way.

[muleskinner]

There are so many differences to the era's that it is pointless comparing then with now anyway.

[Conrad]

This is so much b*llocks.

 

Not only that, but when was this written? Where does it come from, an online blog in 1970?

 

Or is it some smart a*** attempt to show how the 'true fan' was thinking back in 1970 and then make some ridiculous parallel with today?

[smithdown]

This is so much b*llocks. Shankly's achievements before 1970 far eclipse Rafa's with Liverpool. Outside of a CL win when the team weren't good enough to be called Champions of Europe in his first season, we have won next to nothing as a club during Rafa's tenure. There have been some exciting and promising seasons, but none that compare with the achievements of hauling us out of the old second division and making us Champions of England twice. Those kind of achievements buy you some grace. Zero league titles, one CL and an FA Cup don't.

 

Shankly was like Clough. He took a team that literally had nothing going for it (not one that had qualified for the CL as Rafa inherited) and brought it up to the top level, and then more or less made it THE best team in the country for about 4 years (initially). It was job done. Mission accomplished. Holy grail gained. Rafa has done well but it's insulting to our history to compare him to Shanks in this way.

 

I agree with some of this, but going to the likes of Madrid, Milan and Barca quite hopeful of getting results, and winning comfortably, is a fair reflection of the kind of ambition Shankly talked about. From what you say a European Cup win without a European Cup winning team turned into walking into Marseille and smashing them 4-0 and giving nine-times-winners Real Madrid their worst beating for decades. Our results have been the best in Europe under this manager over a 5 year period. No-one has done what we've done since he arrived.

[Zoob]

If the players - or enough players - have lost faith in Rafa (regardless of what they say in public, as this is the Liverpool Way), then him staying here is pointless. But none of us here really knows whether or not this is the case. We're creating so few chances (how many clear cut chances have we created in our last few games?). Is this because of the injuries, players out of form, the general depression surrounding our club (let's not kid ourselves - the players know the financial mess we're in...) or because too many players have had enough of Benitez?

 

I am getting a horrible sort of deja vu feeling though - the mood, mentality and seeming lack of fight does remind me of the last season and a half under Houllier. Our players all look so miserable. When we score, the celebrations are about relief more than anything else. Our players seem too tense, it's as if they couldn't play pass and move football even if they wanted to.

 

What has clearly happened is that Rafa has reverted back to trying not to lose games rather than trying to win them, and against a team like Wolves, that's pretty depressing. So rather than putting subs on to try to win the game, he was concerned that we might lose our shape, and therefore lose the game.

 

I wonder if our players are feeling the same as most of us - mostly dreading the next game. Hoping, rather than expecting us to get anything out of it. Hoping that Gerrard won't look like he's playing at a level of fitness which is the bare minimum to get him onto the pitch. Dreading another game where we start off really positively for about 5 minutes, and then it all goes to crap again...

 

 

Edit: One thing that terrifies me about the idea of losing Benitez, is that it really could get even worse from here. I could absolutely see us with someone like Curbishley in charge. Those who think the likes of Morinho would come when we're absolutely broke, are deluded. We're in a hole right now, but we could end up in an even bigger one...

Edited January 27, 2010 by Zoob

[Molby]

i also want to thank Rafa from the bottom of my heart

 

especially the 2005 CL campaign and 2006 Fa cup campaign and the CL semi in 2007

 

good post Chewie

[Frosty Jack]

win: its on. lose or draw: sack rafa.

[Conrad]

I agree with some of this, but going to the likes of Madrid, Milan and Barca quite hopeful of getting results, and winning comfortably, is a fair reflection of the kind of ambition Shankly talked about. From what you say a European Cup win without a European Cup winning team turned into walking into Marseille and smashing them 4-0 and giving nine-times-winners Real Madrid their worst beating for decades. Our results have been the best in Europe under this manager over a 5 year period. No-one has done what we've done since he arrived.

 

Can't disagree with that. God, we have achieved some astonishing success in Europe under Rafa. Never be able to take that away from him.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Heighway 61 Revisited

[drdooom]

Not only that, but when was this written? Where does it come from, an online blog in 1970?

 

Or is it some smart a*** attempt to show how the 'true fan' was thinking back in 1970 and then make some ridiculous parallel with today?

 

It is the latter.

[Behind Enemy Lines]

win: its on. lose or draw: sack rafa.

yerp - we are the new Spurs

[pipnasty]

win: its on. lose or draw: sack rafa.

 

It's as depressing as it is inevitable. I don't buy this 'he's lost the dressing room, no, he's got it back now, no, he's lost it again' kind of thinking.

 

We were s**** last night, absolutely s**** but I still think we will finish 4th this season. I think that will be enough to satisfy our lovely owners - not sure if it will satisfy our fans though. And that is, of course, crucial.

 

If we get 4th, then he gets next season as far as I am concerned. Obviously, if we start next season in the same way as this season then I don't think Rafa can continue.

 

If we don't get 4th this year, then he is more than likely gone.

[drdooom]

Don't think he'd have gone out and guaranteed 4th place like he did if he's intending/expecting to stay on if we don't get it.