Kuyt & Voronin

[Leo No.8]

...they looked awful as a partnership whenever they played together in pre-season, so it was hardly surprising they were awful together today. I was gutted when I saw the line-up with those two as a pair.

 

Both are good players alongside the right partner, or with plenty of pace around them from midfield. But together they are just too ponderous - each works hard but they are far too similar in the positions they take up and the way they like to play.

 

Neither is that quick, or that great in the air. This is the thing about both Kuyt and Voronin, it's hard to say they are exceptionally good at anything however they are workers, have good technique and are intelligent footballers who make great foils for someone like Torres; but together they actually make each other look worse.

 

I really, really don't want to see those two up front together again. It's as clear as anything that it just doesn't work, there's no cutting edge and it's far too easy to stop two players of that type together.

Edited September 22, 2007 by Leo No.8

[Ianj2]

...they looked awful as a partnership whenever they played together in pre-season, so it was hardly surprising they were awful together today. I was gutted when I saw the line-up with those two as a pair.

 

Both are good players alongside the right partner, or with plenty of pace around them from midfield. But together they are just too ponderous - each works hard but they are far too similar in the positions they take up and the way they like to play.

 

Neither is that quick, or that great in the air. This is the thing about both Kuyt and Voronin, it's hard to say they are exceptionally good at anything however they are workers, have good technique and are intelligent footballers who make great foils for someone like Torres; but together they actually make each other look worse.

 

I really, really don't want to see those two up front together again. It's as clear as anything that it just doesn't work, there's no cutting edge and it's far too easy to stop two players of that type together.

 

As I think most people wondered when they saw the team sheet, these two are just not a partnership.

 

Leo as a long time lurker, I read most post's on here and I always think you are one of the most articulate and reasoned posters.

 

 

Today for the first time after the game I felt lower than for many years, I feel that under Rafa Liverpool will not win the title.

 

So the question I put to you is honestly Leo, as under Houllier do you think Rafa has brought us as far as he can and the title is beyond him.

[New York Red]

You're absolutely right Leo. It's a really bad pairing.

 

I just wonder what we are doing wrong against teams like this. We should be able to pry their defense open and eventually eke out a win at least. I don't know if we are too slow, too unimaginative, not ruthless enough.

 

It's a bummer though. I was totally stoked after our first few games. We really looked great. Now this play in the last three games has really taken the wind out of our sails. I'm hoping this is an aberration but you have to wonder what goes on with this team and Rafa when these runs occur.

[Gunga Din]

from what i have seen, our front two should be Torres and Veronin, although i'd like to see a game with Torres along side Crouch. but certainly it should be Torres plus one other

[floyd the barber]

well from what ive seen, it should be torres and kuyt...why? cos they`ve been awesome in every game they`ve started together!

Edited September 22, 2007 by Lets get Masched

[Cooldude]

Two similar forwards and both requires someone to play off. They've looked all class when they've played off Torres but without him they just look toothless

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

from what i have seen, our front two should be Torres and Veronin, although i'd like to see a game with Torres along side Crouch. but certainly it should be Torres plus one other

agree with this & agree with Leo

 

We needed to get Torres on at HT today. We didn't & it was grim

[floyd the barber]

kuyts been fantastic all season, and looks like afar better player when alongside a predator...

 

as ive said...kuyt and torres should be the front 2 every fecking week

[_00_deathscar]

Spot on Leo.

[Guest Portly]

The combination of Kuyt and Voronin was not our best pairing to start with, but in my opinion, given that Kuyt and Voronin were in action, Rafa was guilty of a second blunder. Our tactics did not suit the situation because we were floating in crosses that were easy for the Birmingham defence to deal with. If Crouch had been on the pitch, this would have worked OK, but as it was, we should have been pinging the ball in to the box.

[Magic8Ball]

The combination of Kuyt and Voronin was not our best pairing to start with, but in my opinion, given that Kuyt and Voronin were in action, Rafa was guilty of a second blunder. Our tactics did not suit the situation because we were floating in crosses that were easy for the Birmingham defence to deal with. If Crouch had been on the pitch, this would have worked OK, but as it was, we should have been pinging the ball in to the box.

what we're missing is young fox in the box type player ...non of our current strikers match that description

[The walters step over]

what we're missing is young fox in the box type player ...non of our current strikers match that description

 

Whilst Rafa's been here we've had Baros,Cisse and Bellamy - none of whom have been a big hit under him and I get the feeling that he doesn't truly trust players that might not contribute a great deal out of the box but can put away that one good chance that falls to them.Hence workhorses like Kuyt and Voronin.

[Magic8Ball]

Whilst Rafa's been here we've had Baros,Cisse and Bellamy - none of whom have been a big hit under him and I get the feeling that he doesn't truly trust players that might not contribute a great deal out of the box but can put away that one good chance that falls to them.Hence workhorses like Kuyt and Voronin.

You are absolutely right ! which is why I like Torres so much, but that doesnt mean we cant get a fox in the box that fits into Rafa's Scheme

Combine Benayoun and Huntelaar for example and you have someone who creates and scores in equal measure but is more dangerous against teams that pack their defense than against teams that play with a high line or attack.

thats why in the summer I dreamed of Tevez and Torres for our attack. Voronin maybe the closest thing to that we have, but its early days yet.

 

Personally I just dont think that Kuyt and Crouch are what we need to progress, Kuyt is very dynamic but never there for the tap ins, and Crouch still way too static and not creative enough. With Crouch though if he could actually head the ball and improve his link up play, I would prefer him to Kuyt despite Kuyt's work ethic

[johngibo YPC]

Not a good pairing at all

If Torres isn't playing (which i want him to as much as poss) I would go with Kuyt and Crouch and thats it

[Rory Fitzgerald]

Kuyt and Voronin should

never play together, if brum

sit tight it could be a while

before we score unless

we use the wings or

Gerrard dashes throught

 

Agree Leo, the above is a text I sent a mate before the game when I saw the team.

 

I think the Feyenoord game in pre-season gave Rafa a very good insight into the Kuyt-Vornonin partnership - it was poor. At times they were close enough to hug our midfielders. Thats great winning the ball back but when you then look to spring forward you are almost bumping off strikers that should be further up the pitch.

 

Personally I feel the strikers fall into 2 categories;

a) Kuyt and Vornonin are players that operate deep and are work horses. They get involved but they never break their ankle to get into the box.

 

b) Torres and Crouch are players that will play on defenders shoulders a bit more. Torres is very direct and has the pace to trouble defenders whilst Crouch will make himself available for lay-offs around the box but immediately makes a dart for the penalty spot to get into a goalscoring position.

 

Not going into it too deeply, I thought we would generally use 1 striker from a) and 1 from b) and maybe Crouch and Torres in odd games. I am personally against Kuyt and Voronin together.

[Kite]

Rafa can be f***ing bewildering at times. Agree with everyone over the thrust of this, Kuyt and Voronin take up similar positions want to do similar things, will only cancel each other out. Rafa has remarked that with Birmingham sitting deep he wanted strikers playing between the lines, ... don't get that at all. Surely, someone has to be in the box at times too. It's just not making sense to me what Rafa's doing now.

[Guest Portly]

It's just not making sense to me what Rafa's doing now.

 

Rafa's post-match comments certainly didn't make sense to me! According to Rafa, the match he was watching, involved us squandering chance after chance in both halves. The fact was that Taylor in the Birmingham goal was a spectator for most of the game!

[John am Rhein]

I really, really don't want to see those two up front together again. It's as clear as anything that it just doesn't work, there's no cutting edge and it's far too easy to stop two players of that type together.

 

I agree to an extent. Better to have an additional attacking midfield player than two 'workman-like' strikers.

[Leo No.8]

Just to add to this - I posted initially on this in the belief that Torres had been considered one to rest against Birmingham.

 

It seems from Rafa's comments after the game that he actually chose Kuyt and Voronin ahead of Torres for tactical reasons. I have to say I find that both baffling and worrying in equal measure.

 

Even disregarding the point about Kuyt and Voronin not being well suited to each other, Torres should play every single game when fit as he's just in a different league to any of our other strikers.

[Red]

Rafa' c*cked up. Hate to say it, but he did.

 

Easy to say in hindsight, but Crouch and Kuyt, or Voro' would have been better than Kuyt and Voro'. I think you summed it up Leo when you said they're too similar and easily stopped.

[The Hitman]

A fox in the box?

Sign Jeffers.He scored at the weekend!!

[honourablegeorge]

Just to add to this - I posted initially on this in the belief that Torres had been considered one to rest against Birmingham.

 

It seems from Rafa's comments after the game that he actually chose Kuyt and Voronin ahead of Torres for tactical reasons. I have to say I find that both baffling and worrying in equal measure.

 

Even disregarding the point about Kuyt and Voronin not being well suited to each other, Torres should play every single game when fit as he's just in a different league to any of our other strikers.

 

 

It's too easy to put the poor performance down to the coice of strikers, Leo - the fact is, we didn't play, at all. Didn't create, didn't pass, didn't have any energy or urgency. And we haven't done since Derby. The confidence seems to have totally drained out of the side.

[Mike]

im watching the game, 90 minutes repeat on setanta now. kuyt had a stinker.

[Shirohana]

It's too easy to put the poor performance down to the coice of strikers, Leo - the fact is, we didn't play, at all. Didn't create, didn't pass, didn't have any energy or urgency. And we haven't done since Derby. The confidence seems to have totally drained out of the side.

 

International break. Say no more.

[Leo No.8]

Just to touch back to this - Rafa's persitance with a strike partnership so horribly unsuited and apparent reluctance to accept the blindingly obvious truth that these two can't play together is infuriating.

 

We're awful in the final third with these two up front, absolutely awful. That game was crying out for Babel up front tonight, he'd have wreaked havoc; if not from the start then after an hour get Benayoun on and move the young lad up top. Instead Kuyt and Voronin are still plodding away after 90 minutes.

 

We look limp going forward without Torres and Gerrard largely out of form, pathetic in fact. They were pub standard at the back tonight and we still created very little. If Torres isn't fit play Crouch, Babel, Benayoun with either but for God's sake no more of Kuyt and Voronin it's just horrible to watch.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Leo No.8