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signing players


Molby

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I'm of the opinion that we need to develop the DOF side of things as much as poss so am made up with Comolli

 

I also think we need to make the Wenger style signings i.e 4 £5m youngsters at a time and develop them or sell them on if it doesn't work

it's infuriated me for years that we couldn't do this before and as we all know it infuriated Rafa too

 

am optimistic that the structure and philosophy is being put in place to allow this

 

BUT: Is there a better exponent of this model than Arsenal? and if not, let's face facts: we are miles behind them so how can we even catch them any time soon, let alone overtake them? and bear in mind they have won nothing for 6 years anyway

 

which leads me to believe that the only viable model is the one above, plus 2 established big name signings or so

 

 

am confident of the first part of the strategy but not so of the second being forthcoming from NESV, based purely on their utterances and their deeds so far

 

thoughts?

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The 'Arsenal' model is flawed. As evident from them having a number of positions whereby they have no/limited quality i.e. GK and CB and having not won anything in ages.

A combination of top quality 21-25 year olds and potentially quality 18-21 year olds is what is needed.

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The 'Arsenal' model is flawed. As evident from them having a number of positions whereby they have no/limited quality i.e. GK and CB and having not won anything in ages.

A combination of top quality 21-25 year olds and potentially quality 18-21 year olds is what is needed.

 

aren't these the areas where you just steam in and make the big signings?

 

goalie, CB? if I was a Gooner I'd be annoyed that they didn't just steam in and try to sign Pepe to sort out the goalie problem once and for all

 

and I would hope that we would not dither if we got in to that situation again

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I'm of the opinion that we need to develop the DOF side of things as much as poss so am made up with Comolli

 

I also think we need to make the Wenger style signings i.e 4 £5m youngsters at a time and develop them or sell them on if it doesn't work

it's infuriated me for years that we couldn't do this before and as we all know it infuriated Rafa too

 

am optimistic that the structure and philosophy is being put in place to allow this

 

BUT: Is there a better exponent of this model than Arsenal? and if not, let's face facts: we are miles behind them so how can we even catch them any time soon, let alone overtake them? and bear in mind they have won nothing for 6 years anyway

 

which leads me to believe that the only viable model is the one above, plus 2 established big name signings or so

 

 

am confident of the first part of the strategy but not so of the second being forthcoming from NESV, based purely on their utterances and their deeds so far

 

thoughts?

 

Arsenal find talented kids and pay them the earth to join, hence why they have an enormous wage bill (3rd or 4th highest in the leagueif I recall).

 

If one of these kids doesnt pay off they may have paid around £5M to sign the player and another £3M-£4M or so in wages developing them. It's not the brilliant business model everyone seems to think.

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i don't mind the idea of a dedicated director of scouting, identifying the types of players needed, making the approach, sorting out contracts etc. not so keen on that person implementing the footballing philosophy. i think that's better left in the hands of a visionary manager, who is then helped by the director of football to see it's fruition. that was the wenger/dein relationship.

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i think we're at a crossroads. a few key players are getting towards veteran status, a number of players simply aren't really top club quality and we have a batch of talented youngsters waiting / needing to be blooded. the DOF model works if it spots players who are going to become really top quality, such as reina, alonso, torres, mascherano, kuyt, agger etc, but a lot is going to depend on how much budget we have to tempt players away from signing for teams with CL football to offer them. it's going to be a really important period and at the risk of banging the same old drum, we don't have the right manager in place to develop things as they should be developed.

 

NESV seem to have made a smart move in appointing commoli and moving to that model, next move needs to be getting a manager in place who will grow with the club.

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The 'Arsenal' model is flawed. As evident from them having a number of positions whereby they have no/limited quality i.e. GK and CB and having not won anything in ages.

A combination of top quality 21-25 year olds and potentially quality 18-21 year olds is what is needed.

 

 

I think it is flawed because they don't add the the top stars and by doing that when the development of the youth is successful (eg Fabregas) there comes a point at which they want to leave because they won't wait for the "next crop" to move them to being properly competitive.

 

I'm with the original post on this. It's also a model Ferguson has adopted to some extent, though he was obviously blessed with a crop of 4-5 high calibre home grown players

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goalie, CB? if I was a Gooner I'd be annoyed that they didn't just steam in and try to sign Pepe to sort out the goalie problem once and for all

 

 

Bob Wilson confirmed a week or so back that Wenger tried exactly that in the summer. It was a comedy "I can't name the goalie in question, but he plays for a team who in normal circumstances would be one of our main rivals...and is spanish...and his name rhymes with...

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Bob Wilson confirmed a week or so back that Wenger tried exactly that in the summer. It was a comedy "I can't name the goalie in question, but he plays for a team who in normal circumstances would be one of our main rivals...and is spanish...and his name rhymes with...

 

he won't offer proper money for him though. he recognises he's one of the top keepers in the world, but thinks he should cost no more than £12 million. fabianski will have a decent run at some point and wenger'll convince himself he's the new yashin. he's an idiot in this sense.

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he won't offer proper money for him though. he recognises he's one of the top keepers in the world, but thinks he should cost no more than £12 million. fabianski will have a decent run at some point and wenger'll convince himself he's the new yashin. he's an idiot in this sense.

 

 

Would be interesting to know what the offer was, Wilson claimed he "went in big" but obviously didn't give any specific figure. The rest of the interview consisted of him and the five live guy claiming Fabianski was great now he's played a couple of games in a row and that Wigan performance from last season never happened. Oh and they've got some fantastic youngster coming through the ranks...:yawn:

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I'm of the opinion that we need to develop the DOF side of things as much as poss so am made up with Comolli

 

I also think we need to make the Wenger style signings i.e 4 £5m youngsters at a time and develop them or sell them on if it doesn't work

it's infuriated me for years that we couldn't do this before and as we all know it infuriated Rafa too

 

am optimistic that the structure and philosophy is being put in place to allow this

 

BUT: Is there a better exponent of this model than Arsenal? and if not, let's face facts: we are miles behind them so how can we even catch them any time soon, let alone overtake them? and bear in mind they have won nothing for 6 years anyway

 

which leads me to believe that the only viable model is the one above, plus 2 established big name signings or so

 

 

am confident of the first part of the strategy but not so of the second being forthcoming from NESV, based purely on their utterances and their deeds so far

 

thoughts?

 

Good post and I like your thoughts. This strikes me as a bit cart before the horse though. The recruitment policy has to be subservient to the overall vision of where we want to be. We have to settle on a style of play which gives us the best chance of being successful and choose a recruitment policty, players (and coaches) from there. Is it easier to win at home and in Europe with tall, powerful players, with small, technical players, or does pace win over everything else etc., etc.? With the appointment of Comolli, we have to think from first principles. We want to be winners, so what styles of football have best enabled this? Rather than Arsenal as a model from a stylistic point of view, you'd have to say that on both the domestic and European stages the styles of Chelsea and Utd have been more successful. Or is it that Arsenal have been on the right track and with a twist (a dose more power perhaps) they could have been successful.

 

For instance, if we want to play a high game, then that dictates that we need (much) quicker centre-halves, but also ones that aren't sucseptible aerially or we'll be too weak there. Is there a need for a midfield enforcer any more? I don't see very many at the top clubs anywhere. Positioning, athleticism and tactical nous have become more important perhaps. Maybe it's cheaper and more modern to have three Meireles / Defour / Lucas midfield all-rounder types rotating for two starting spots than blowing a large amount on one Mascherano for instance. It strikes me Utd currently do this. Arsenal might have been on the right track that young French African athletic types like Alex Song are a more cost-effective way of building a midfield but that you need two of that type, rather than just him to be successful and marry that with one less small, technical player. Recruiting smart from a financial point of view is one aspect of the moneyball theme. But half of the success of that ethos was the discovery of previously undervalued skills in putting a team together. Is this possible in football as well?

 

I think this argument comes first and could make for some decent discussion.

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Its essential to have a couple of players approaching 30 early 30s i think but we Need players who are up to 26ish and are playing for decent teams but a step down from us and give them chance to excel on the big stage...

 

The worst thing we could do is sign over rated english players like Man City and players who are ageing but still at big clubs but gradually getting eased out and come here for one final big pay day!

Edited by crisps
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Its essential to have a couple of players approaching 30 early 30s i think but we Need players who are up to 26ish and are playing for decent teams but a step down from us and give them chance to excel on the big stage...

 

The worst thing we could do is sign over rated english players like Man City and players who are ageing but still at big clubs but gradually getting eased out and come here for one final big pay day!

 

agree on that and it looks like that is no longer on the cards

 

the best signings are the top players whose stars are in the ascendancy

 

best examples were Torres, Barnes and Dalglish

 

Arsenal have the best record in this country but obviously there is most to be learned from Ajax over the years in terms of youth development and Barca for signing kids and nurturing them as if they were virtual academy graduates

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I think it is flawed because they don't add the the top stars and by doing that when the development of the youth is successful (eg Fabregas) there comes a point at which they want to leave because they won't wait for the "next crop" to move them to being properly competitive.

 

I'm with the original post on this. It's also a model Ferguson has adopted to some extent, though he was obviously blessed with a crop of 4-5 high calibre home grown players

 

A lot of it is down to Wenger stubbornly sticking to his principles and refusing to spend big as well.

 

I think the most obvious policy would be investment in top young talent with the odd player in their prime which fit into the footballing philosophy that we are going to buy into. Not really adding anything new to the discussion, agreeing with both Molby and benno I suppose. We've still got the elephant of Hodgson looming large which hinders this process, particularly the philosophy part, but I suppose we shouldn't dwell on that in every single thread.

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Directors of Football are a waste of time, another layer of management, another source of paralysis in the decision making process especially if the manager and the director end up at odds with each other.as was the case with him and Jol

Edited by ChaoticPrimate
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get the best young local players, we havent been doing this in a long time gerrard, owen, macca, carragher, fowler all came through the ranks and cost nowt but gave us great years and were all

 

heroes to the fans... everton got rooney and rodwell who are the best two players out of liverpool in recent years and we should have been all over them, surely our scouts knew about them?

 

we need to get some scouts in argentina, the amount of top players coming out of there is unreal. every top club in europe seems to have a handful of argies in the squad and you can get them cheap

 

get the best young players in england too and around europe

 

we shouldnt be signing players over 25 as we have too many players around the 30 mark in the squad with little sell on value

 

rafa signed some gems like torres, reina, agger, mascherano, alonso and sissoko and made them into superstars who the club would make a profit on if they were sold

 

even the not so great signings like skrtel,lucas, gonzalez, palleta, carson, kromkamp the club will make their money back or even make a profit because they were signed at a young age

 

but the days of signing over the hill players of 28/29/30 must end

 

we have had too many in the last few years who havent worked out and the squad is rammed with them now maxi,jovanovic,degen,konchesky,aurelio,kyriagkos, poulsen, cole all on huge wages and have no resale value and are not good enough

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Rafa said one of his problems was having to gamble £2m to £5m on potential that then didn't make it. And the price for real, class, obvious potential has shot up - how much were the likes of Walcott and Bale?

 

I don't think Henry/Commoli/new manager can be looking at this tactic until they've spent big on major star names. Having £10m potential players (or even £2m ones) in the squad is no good unless they're training day in day out with great players.

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For instance, if we want to play a high game, then that dictates that we need (much) quicker centre-halves, but also ones that aren't sucseptible aerially or we'll be too weak there. Is there a need for a midfield enforcer any more? I don't see very many at the top clubs anywhere. Positioning, athleticism and tactical nous have become more important perhaps. Maybe it's cheaper and more modern to have three Meireles / Defour / Lucas midfield all-rounder types rotating for two starting spots than blowing a large amount on one Mascherano for instance. It strikes me Utd currently do this. Arsenal might have been on the right track that young French African athletic types like Alex Song are a more cost-effective way of building a midfield but that you need two of that type, rather than just him to be successful and marry that with one less small, technical player. Recruiting smart from a financial point of view is one aspect of the moneyball theme. But half of the success of that ethos was the discovery of previously undervalued skills in putting a team together. Is this possible in football as well?
Great to be able to talk about potential tactics again, makes a change from the other shyte.

 

If the defence is not mobile enough then an enforcer is required. In the recent past we have been spoilt with the likes of Mascherano, Sissoko and Hamann. They were linch pins in the team because the central defense lacked mobility. If the team is to evolve then the central defense has to change, for me none of the current central defenders are must keeps.

Kyriakos - great aggression, great attacking the ball but is too slow.

Skrtel - he looked decent but now he's a nervous wreck.

Agger - I remember watching him boss Drogba in the Champions League Semi-Final which seems to have been an eternity ago and thought if he was capable of that type of display then the defense was sorted for years to come but since then he has faded due to recurring injuries.

Carragher - he is past it. He has given great service but he is not first 11 team material any longer. His contribution at the moment is shouting at his team mates.

 

Potential replacements:

Phil Jones (Blackburn) - He's only 18/19 but he has been impressive and if he continues to develop he'll be the John Terry of his generation.

Ryan Shawcross (Stoke City) - He's a 23 year old giant of a defender.

Jan Vertonghen (Ajax) - He's a 23 year old ball playing defender, also knows how to find the net. If you haven't seen him play then check him out on YouTube - I'm sure he'll have more than a couple of highlight compilations.

 

Those three could replace our current defence, allow the team to play further up the pitch and eliminate the need for the enforcer type sitting in central midfield.

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