Barry + Keane = must challenge for title?

[Chewie]

Having read Royendo's wonderful piece on the evolution at Anfield etc I am wary of this becoming a guillotine thread - i.e. we must win the league or else we will meltdown, rafa should be sacked and the whole thing started again...

 

but having signed Keane and seemingly about to sign Barry I believe this does mean that we must realistically challenge this year, and I believe Rafa knows this too...

 

for the past 2 and a half seasons he's been building towards this, buying in young players right through the spine of our side...

 

Agger, Skrtle and Masch - must rank amongst the best January buys in history

Torres and Babel - have had one full season under their belts

 

we've also been buying up half of Europe's youth talent so that in 2-3 years we should be promoting ready made replacements into the team...

 

but now we've gone and broken the mould. We've bought real premiership experience at prices we will never recoup. the only way these two players can pay for themselves is to add their experience and talent to a title challenge this year and to a premiership within the next 1-3 (i.e. I believe it is possible this year)

 

Keane and Barry represent a stage in our development that knows we need to push forward now, and understands that the talent is there in reserve waiting to come through to replace these players when they hit 31-32...if say Plessis and Ngog eventually replace Barry and Keane then the whole exercise will have cost £40 mil and we'll probably have those 2 players worth that by then anyway...

 

with the spine of our side being what it is there is no reason why we should not challenge...look down the centre of our team...

 

Reina

 

Carra Agger Skrtl Hyypia

 

Masch Alonso/Barry (maybe both) Gerrard

 

Torres Keane

 

then add in Babel, Kuyt, Aurelio, Dossena, Arbeloa, Degen (perhaps), Lucas, Benayoun (hopefully not sold)

 

and consider the likes of Plessis, Ngog, Darby, Insua etc

 

and there is no doubt that we should be challenging. That spine above is a team of real quality, real experience, and real mental toughness - everyone there looks like a leader. everyone in that spine looks like a player who believes they should be on that pitch, and who the other players believe should be there beside them. Remember a team when it appeared that Stevie was simply frustrated by those around him - Reina, Agger, Masch, Barry, Torres, Keane - can't say that anymore. It simply looks like a team that should look at itself in the dressing room and believe!

 

I know the mancs and chelski have the experience and many quality players of their own... but the signings of Barry and Keane mark a transition for me and I believe for Rafa also. I believe this year he believes we have a team to really press for the title and I would be bitterly disappointed if the players at our disposal aren't capable of delivering one.

 

As a brief aside I do worry about a firesale if Barry comes. Given that Finnan I really hope we don't plum for raising the cash by selling Benayoun, Arbeloa and Pennant (ok, I don't really care if he goes). Quite simply I believe our spine is really strong but we do need the depth to compete over the whole season. Losing 4 players who can play in different positions to gain one player who I believe will do very well for us may be too high a price to pay over the whole season. Its why the straight trade between Alonso and Barry makes sense (though I do want Xabi to stay)...

 

anyway - that was something of a digression but thought I would mention it as it is the possible lack of strength in depth that would concern me once we get beyond the spine of the side...

 

really expectant we will challenge - we may not win it but we should be challenging. This to my mind is why we're paying the sort of money we will be for the players we're signing...to challenge NOW...

 

Chewie

[John am Rhein]

You can't determine whether we 'should be' challenging or not based on how strong our squad is. It also depends heavily on how strong the other top sides are, i.e. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U (maybe others).

 

If we get say 85 points and someone else finishes 10 ahead of us then it won't have been a failure.

[Rimbeux]

You can't determine whether we 'should be' challenging or not based on how strong our squad is. It also depends heavily on how strong the other top sides are, i.e. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U (maybe others).

 

If we get say 85 points and someone else finishes 10 ahead of us then it won't have been a failure.

 

Aye

[surf]

6 points more than last season would be a big improvement. I'd be happy with that.

[John am Rhein]

We could get less points than last season and still be doing pretty well, although obviously it would be disappointing.

[Pam]

we are not the only team strengthening and can only impact our own performance. i expect us to do better this season - turn some of the draws of last season into wins and do better against top four teams but we don't have a divine right to win the league. We look to be building a strong first eleven with some exciting young players coming through. A title challenge this year to develop some experience of a title fight would be acceptable and a great platform to build on. Not that i wouldn't welcome winning the league this year i just think to jump straight from fourth to first when Utd and Chelsea will strengthen further is a big ask.

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

We could get less points than last season and still be doing pretty well, although obviously it would be disappointing.

not if we get fewer points & win the league

[John am Rhein]

not if we get fewer points & win the league

 

That would be stupefying

[RedTillImDead]

I would be happy with improvement, as someone else said if we can win the games against the low level teams that we drew last year and win our home games against chelsea, arsenal and man u we should be there or there abouts come april next year.

 

our squad and starting 11 is the best its been in recent times so I dont think it is unfair to expect a more sustained challenge for the premiership and in all competitions really.

 

I'm sure the owners will be looking for improved performance given they have spent 50 mil on players in the last 12 months.

[Magic8Ball]

What's needed to improve ( other than personnel), is a change of attitude. We have to move from containing/smothering the opposition and hence not losing. To being more aggressive, going out to control and score, again, and again. Effectively not only winning but breaking the oppositions spirit. Get the ball, keep the ball, score. Once we start doing that teams facing us will expect to lose, thus making losing more likely. It will also fix one of our biggest problems, controlling games but not killing off the opposition.

 

There are 2 ways to remove the oppositions ability to "wage war"

 

1 - Smother their attack weapon ( Rafa has done this so far)

2 - Break their spirit ( by continually scoring and keeping the ball)

 

The latter is more effective as the opposition wont want to try to win, thus conceding the initiative to us

[Frosty Jack]

6 points more than last season would be a big improvement. I'd be happy with that.

 

especially if they're picked up against UTD.

[Swipe]

We HAVE to do better in the games against United. It's a must and really could alter our fortunes.

 

It's only 6 points, but it's also a huge pyschological barrier we could hurdle.

[Molby]

I would be happy with improvement, as someone else said if we can win the games against the low level teams that we drew last year and win our home games against chelsea, arsenal and man u we should be there or there abouts come april next year.

 

our squad and starting 11 is the best its been in recent times so I dont think it is unfair to expect a more sustained challenge for the premiership and in all competitions really.

 

I'm sure the owners will be looking for improved performance given they have spent 50 mil on players in the last 12 months.

 

yes I'm sure we're all deeply concerned about that

 

meantime, our SQUAD might be like that in 3 years if the new kids actually come through

 

our 1st 11 can beat anyone but our squad is not as good as the ever-improving Chelsea or the Mancs

eg we signed Keane, which is great but we lost Crouch - no obvious net improvement

[Cooger]

I think the target should be beating our best points total under Rafa, which is 82 points. If we do that we'll comfortably be in the top three and be close to winning it.

 

We've got a first XI good enough to beat that total. We've got the match winners to get the goals in Gerrard, Keane and Torres (possibly Babel). We've got the most consistent keeper in the league. We've got a solid defence which will be shielded by two impressive central midfielders in Mascherano and Barry (or Alonso).

 

The foundations are strong, as you had said in your post. Keane and Barry should slot into the team, given their quality and they're used to the league. Hopeful this will give us that extra quality which might have been lacking at times in the past. I think it will certainly help our consistancy as they are two players who perform week in, week out in this league.

 

I like it how the squad is getting trimmed down and possibly further with Pennant and Finnan possibly leaving. I think it's good that youngsters seem to be filling the gaps in the squad, this will be good for their development and the clubs future.

 

It's looking positive. Ideally we'd have another left sided player, but I don't think it's essential for a challenge. We've got two good attacking options in Babel / Benayoun for this postion, maybe three if you include Ngog. We've got other options for left midfield in Barry and Aurelio.

 

Benitez has what he wants - options or "possibilities". He can make slight changes in personel and formations which will give the opposition numberous problems. For example... A team of Reina, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Dossena, Gerrard, Barry, Mascherano, Babel, Keane and Torres can be very flexible:

 

4-4-2

 

------------------------------------Reina--------------------------------------------

 

Carragher----------Skrtel-------------------------Agger------------------Dossena

 

Gerrard-----------Mascherano--------------------Barry--------------------- Babel

 

------------------------Keane---------------------Torres---------------------------

 

4-2-3-1

 

------------------------------------Reina--------------------------------------------

 

Carragher----------Skrtel-------------------------Agger------------------Dossena

 

-------------------Mascherano--------------------Barry----------------------------

 

Gerrard-----------------------------Keane------------------------------------Babel

 

-------------------------------------Torres-------------------------------------------

 

4-3-3

 

------------------------------------Reina--------------------------------------------

 

Carragher----------Skrtel-------------------------Agger------------------Dossena

 

------------Gerrard-------------Mascherano--------------------Barry---------------

 

-------------Keane-----------------Torres--------------------Babel-----------------

 

3-5-2

 

------------------------------------Reina--------------------------------------------

 

----------------Carragher----------Skrtel----------------------Agger--------------

 

Gerrard---------------Mascherano------------Barry-----------------------Dossena

 

-------------------------------------Babel--------------------------------------------

 

------------------------Keane---------------------Torres---------------------------

 

 

Some of these formations might be unlikely, however it just shows that the team is full of players that can play a number of roles and different formations. Benitez can make subtle changes in games, making it hard for the opposition to know who's playing where and as a result who should mark who.

 

The team is full of good footballers, ones with few weaknesses in their games - team players. Torres, Keane, Gerrard, Mascherano, Barry etc all work incredibly hard. They can all defend, be it from the front or not. They have rounded games and as a result we'll be threatening in all circumstances. This team is a threat on the counter attack, given the pace we have. It's a threat in possession given the quality we have on the ball. It's got threat down the centre, on the right or left - giving the opposition numberous dfifferent problems. These team players will able us to see the right balance between defending as a team and attacking as one. We'll be organised and compact in defence hunting in packs, nulifying time and space for the opposition. But in attack we'll be free and threatening with Gerrard, Keane, Babel and Torres, license to roam and hurt the opposition with their movement, pace and skill. It's an exciting balance.

 

The limited players are leaving. Riise, Crouch, Sissoko to name three - players that had strengths, but they also had weaknesses in their games. They have been upgraded by better footballers, who have few weaknesses and as a result we should be a better team because of it.

 

I don't think the importance of the new backroom staff should be underestimated either. Sammy Lee will get on with the players and get them up for every Premiership game. He knows what the fans demand and he'll make sure the players do as well. I think Benitez can be cold at times with the players, treating them like employees. Balague said Pako used to play the good cop, getting on with the players, where as Benitez was the bad cop, not allowing sentiment to get in the way of making decisions. Sammy Lee could be the new good cop, make the players feel loved and improve the atmosphere at the club. I also think Pellegrino should slot straight inot the club, as along with Sammy Lee he's been here before and knows what to expect. He'll improve the zonal marking and set plays defensively, which is an area which needed to be improved from last season.

 

On and off the field it seems everything is in place for the club to flourish in the league. We've got the team, we've got the manager, we've got the staff, now we just have to hope we get a touch of luck, but I think we'll make our own luck with this team as it's quality, full of promise and talent. We're not favourites and I think the targets should be beating 82 points. But there is no reason why this team can't achieve what we demand next season, it's good enough.

[David Hodgson]

You can't determine whether we 'should be' challenging or not based on how strong our squad is. It also depends heavily on how strong the other top sides are, i.e. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U (maybe others).

 

If we get say 85 points and someone else finishes 10 ahead of us then it won't have been a failure.

 

I agree with this. It's always about your points total.

 

Having said that, I'm begining to think that you have to keep to the average that's going to get you the 85 point + season, in the first part of the season. Arsenal may have fallen away badly last season, but they competed for the title for most of it.

 

By contrast, we had 'title form', points-wise, after January, but they were points attained when the pressure was not so intense.

[Falconhoof]

yes I'm sure we're all deeply concerned about that

 

meantime, our SQUAD might be like that in 3 years if the new kids actually come through

 

our 1st 11 can beat anyone but our squad is not as good as the ever-improving Chelsea or the Mancs

eg we signed Keane, which is great but we lost Crouch - no obvious net improvement

 

I think we've improved a lot during this summer.

 

Keane not only outscores Crouch but he's capable of linking the play better. Thats a big step forward. The benefit to Torres and Gerrard of having a smart player like Keane who is also a goal threat shouldn't be underestimated.

Dossena HAS to be an improvement on Riise. If he can help us keep the ball better then it removes a big tactical weakness of having a poor left hand side. If we add Barry then that will give us great balance to the midfield.

Cavalieri is a competent reserve goalkeeper and i'm not convinced Charles was.

Skrtel has bedded in well now, Agger being back is a huge boost and we've still got the ever ready Carra and Sami can be rested and used sparingly. A better 4 centre halfs we'd struggle to find.

 

We aren't quite there yet but we've made consistent improvements over the last 3 transfer windows. We've added the right characters and not tried to flash the cash going for the likes of Ronaldinho or Quaresma to satisfy the clamour for big names.

 

I'm trying not to get carried away but we'll be closer at the turn of the year this time.

[Kindred]

Having said that, I'm begining to think that you have to keep to the average that's going to get you the 85 point + season, in the first part of the season. Arsenal may have fallen away badly last season, but they competed for the title for most of it.

 

I think thats the key for me. For example we could have a fairly mediocre first half of the season and then embark on a 15 game unbeaten run which just nicks us 3rd place by 1 point on the last day of the season, but still leave us 6-7 points adrift of the title. - Were we ever really challenging for the title?

 

OR we could go throughout the season consistently picking up points, without any major poor runs of games, but lose out in a couple of '6 pointer' games in the closing weeks of the season and still end up with the same points scenario as above.

 

So for me, its not just the points total, its how consistently those points were won throughout the season, which is probably what we should be looking for as an improvement this season.

[Chewie]

I think thats the key for me. For example we could have a fairly mediocre first half of the season and then embark on a 15 game unbeaten run which just nicks us 3rd place by 1 point on the last day of the season, but still leave us 6-7 points adrift of the title. - Were we ever really challenging for the title?

 

OR we could go throughout the season consistently picking up points, without any major poor runs of games, but lose out in a couple of '6 pointer' games in the closing weeks of the season and still end up with the same points scenario as above.

 

So for me, its not just the points total, its how consistently those points were won throughout the season, which is probably what we should be looking for as an improvement this season.

 

I can understand some of the logic in a points total argument but not all fo it. For instance - the whole league could in theory strengthen which should mean fewer teams with so many points. Therefore it's about being competitive in a dog-fight rather than simply reaching a certain tally.

 

Or - as I believe is the case - the three teams coming up will not strengthen the premier league so in theory it is weaker and we should get more points than last time

 

or - and this I believe is the most crucial point - where we are come March will have a significant impact on our points total. If we are comfortably third going into last third of season but not challenging we will stay steady but not threaten in league and Europe and Cup will become key... if we are challenging going into last third this will mean we push on for more points...the point is that even when we've got 82 points we weren't challenging so the last few games were dead...

 

we've also seen a couple of years back the likes of the infamous game against Fulham where we didn't really care about the points...

 

So, for me its about being competitive against the teams around us that really counts. We have the strength in depth to do better against the lesser teams and a team full of ability, experience and indeed full of captains, should be able to compete in the big-four games...Reina, Agger, Carra, Skrtl, Masch, Barry, Gerrard, Torres, Keane should all believe they deserve to be on the same pitch as anyone ... they're all leaders, so if we shrink mentally from these big games I think we should have cause to wonder why...

 

Chewie

[Clay Davis]

I've seen alot of confidence in our play in pre-season. I've seen a more ruthless attitude (one I talked about a few weeks ago and even Benayoun has come out and said we need to be more ruthless) from the players and manager on and off the pitch. With the exception of maybe one player we have the team and the squad now - we just need the will and the wit.

[fyds]

You can't determine whether we 'should be' challenging or not based on how strong our squad is. It also depends heavily on how strong the other top sides are, i.e. Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U (maybe others).

 

If we get say 85 points and someone else finishes 10 ahead of us then it won't have been a failure.

I see it the same way. If we end up 4th again, but with 80+ pts, then we have to see that as decent season of progress.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

I see it the same way. If we end up 4th again, but with 80+ pts, then we have to see that as decent season of progress.

 

I don't think 80+ is ambitious enough (don't want to take you too literally just for the sake of being pedantic, but...) just getting 4-6 more points than last season would be a big disappointment to me

[fyds]

I don't think 80+ is ambitious enough (don't want to take you too literally just for the sake of being pedantic, but...) just getting 4-6 more points than last season would be a big disappointment to me

I know what you mean, but I'm hedging it based on us not knowing how the other big three will do. Could be that about 85 or even less points could win it this year.

[Tommok]

yes I'm sure we're all deeply concerned about that

 

meantime, our SQUAD might be like that in 3 years if the new kids actually come through

 

our 1st 11 can beat anyone but our squad is not as good as the ever-improving Chelsea or the Mancs

eg we signed Keane, which is great but we lost Crouch - no obvious net improvement

 

Do you honestly believe that Keane is not an improvement on Crouch???

 

I had a lot of time for Crouchy but sorry its CRAZY to say Keane is not an improvement on him.

Edited August 3, 2008 by TommoK

[Earl Hafler]

Do you honestly believe that Keane is not an improvement on Crouch???

 

I had a lot of time for Crouchy but sorry its CRAZY to say Keane is not an improvement on him.

 

Me too. Crouch was a good player for us but Keane is capable of so much more.

 

 

I think Rafa's big test this season will be getting the defence right. ( I've decided not to use the R word in this post )

[Paisley]

I can see it's going to start pissing me off if people start suggesting Rafa's time is up if he doesn't win the league this season. What's happening now is beginning to remind me of Man U when Ferguson first took over. They didn't win the league straight away, but over a few years Ferguson gradually improved the team, replacing the dross with top quality players until a couple more great signings (Cantona, Schmeichel) were enough to make them the best team in the country. We're starting to get there and a bit more cash for top class signings would help; and although this season we might not quite be ready, with the players we've got, the young players coming through (Nemeth, Pacheco) and perhaps one or two special signings the future looks very good for us under Rafa...