Is the Prem bent ?

[Flight]

There's a number of threads that are mentioning poor refereeing. Some folk are saying it's never been so obvious that refs are bent; others are saying it's just honest mistakes.

 

What is beyond question is that the Mancs have found this favoring them time and again, this term,

 

For the first time ever a manager came out and suggested it - Rafas infamous 'rant'. It's gone below the radar of every journo, but two recently retired, top referees came out in support of Rafa and agreed with him.

 

 

 

Winters said : the credibility and integrity of the game is being questioned, not only by biased fans but by the participants.

 

He and Poll also says that Ferguson can get away with whatever he wants. That if the refs don't make the 'right decisions' and 'toe the party line' they will be punished.

 

If biased fans say something suspicious then you can probably ignore it. But when two top referees say the game is bent then its time to pay attention.

 

 

 

 

 

Poll said this :

 

Former Premier League referee Graham Poll agrees that Sir Alex Ferguson receives lenient treatment from the Football Association.

 

Benitez claimed Ferguson does not get punished sufficiently for his sometimes outspoken criticism of match officials.

 

Poll enjoyed a good relationship with Ferguson during his time as a referee but believes the Scot does get preferential treatment from FA disciplinary chiefs.

 

"Rafa Benitez has articulated what referees have been thinking for years - that Sir Alex Ferguson can say what he wants about them and the FA will allow him to get away with it."

 

 

 

 

Jeff Winters said this :

 

 

MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS 13-1-09

 

The latest round of managerial mind games was played out by Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez on Friday.

 

I am sure that there was an element of tactics in the timing and content of his interview but the fact remains that no-one could argue with the truth of what he said.

 

Regular readers of my articles will know that I often refer back to the game between Manchester United and Portsmouth in last season's FA Cup. After this game, Fergie publically castigated both referee Martin Atkinson and refs' chief Keith Hackett after United lost 1-0 and Ronaldo had not won a penalty after he was fouled in the penalty area.

 

United fans would feel aggrieved but the rest of the football world probably thought of the many times that the "winker" had won penalties when perhaps he was not entitled to have done.

 

Some may say "Live by the sword, die by the sword", but as we know, managers have selective eyesight and memories over certain incidents. I actually agreed with Fergie's comments about Hackett but that did not make his castigation of both Hackett and Atkinson any more acceptable.

 

What happened next was typical of the authorities. Fergie and his assistant were charged and then everything went quiet, except that Atkinson was kept away from United for the rest of the season. This meant that he was effectively debarred from officiating the top games that his ability and status warranted.

 

I have often wondered whether this castigation of certain officials - as done by Mourinho, Wenger and Fergie over recent seasons - was actually more pre-meditated than just a post match rant due to the weakness of the authorities and the knowledge that any ref who may be involved in any FA case would be kept away from the side who had complained about them.

 

In effect, the big clubs were virtually selecting who would or would not ref their games.

 

After the outburst, unbelievably Fergie and Quirez both got off scot-free.

 

This season, Fergie has made a similar outburst against Mike Dean. Let's see how long he is kept away from United.

 

In local football, when I started off, if a club slagged off a ref and marked him as poor, the local authorities would send the ref back to the team asap, just to let clubs know who was running the game.

 

Is there any chance of that happening today - not a cat in hell!!

 

 

Is it any wonder that some refs are clearly afraid of upsetting the biggest clubs? It is their careers that are on the line.

 

 

Only the most senior officials are somewhat bullet proof as there is an obvious shortage of senior officials who can be given the games between the biggest sides.

 

Other refs who get the likes of United, Chelsea and Arsenal usually get them against lesser sides and I believe that on some occasions, they are subconsciously not making decisions against them as those decisions could cost them dearly.

 

This situation is not acceptable. We need stronger refs but that will only happen if they get support from the authorities.

 

The PGMOL that controls the professional refs is basically run by the clubs and their representatives. Many people - myself included - have found out that if you don't toe the party line, then you will face consequences.

 

I hope that Benitez's words hit a nerve and someone takes note and starts to realise that the credibility and integrity of the game is being questioned, not only by biased fans but by the participants as well. I am not holding my breath!!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Flight

[NWR]

I am waiting for Wenger to come out with a "We are scared to go to OT this week because we fear the ref will be biased towards United and will give them a penalty or send one of our players off" b******s seeing as it worked for Moyes last week and a stone wall penalty was not given.

 

If you think the league is bent then that is up to you. Personally if I thought the league was bent I would have nothing to do with football.

 

Fact is that the top 4 get a lot more decisions go their way. Both United and Liverpool got game turning decisions yesterday, I have no doubt Arsenal got one or two today. Thats the way it has been here for years. All the old hacks say that Liverpool got them a lot when they were winning the league all the time, but its more noticeable now because almost all games are live on tv and analysed and scrutinised to death.

 

I dont expect any of you to agree with me but if you dont win the PL this season its down to your inability to score and kill of some of the smaller teams and too many draws, its not because the league is bent.

[carrafan]

I am waiting for Wenger to come out with a "We are scared to go to OT this week because we fear the ref will be biased towards United and will give them a penalty or send one of our players off" b******s seeing as it worked for Moyes last week and a stone wall penalty was not given.

 

If you think the league is bent then that is up to you. Personally if I thought the league was bent I would have nothing to do with football.

 

Fact is that the top 4 get a lot more decisions go their way. Both United and Liverpool got game turning decisions yesterday, I have no doubt Arsenal got one or two today. Thats the way it has been here for years. All the old hacks say that Liverpool got them a lot when they were winning the league all the time, but its more noticeable now because almost all games are live on tv and analysed and scrutinised to death.

 

I dont expect any of you to agree with me but if you dont win the PL this season its down to your inability to score and kill of some of the smaller teams and too many draws, its not because the league is bent.

 

Aye fair enough. I didnt expect anything else from you.

 

Why do you think the number of dodgy decisions gone in United's favour have been far more than what we've and pretty much everyone has got. Ours is closer to 50-50 both ways, you lot have had a pretty awesome season when it has come down to refereeing decisions and has single handedly made a positive dent to your points table...even more than good ol' Giggsy. Do you put that down to Ferguson's demeanor and that the ref's are plain scared of him?

[Romario]

I think there is some truth to this and have for a long time. I also think that a huge amount of folks from lower/smaller teams (whatever you want to call them) who would probably say the same about us being a big team and getting favourable decisions at times.

 

I think once a team is established as a "big team" and momentum is with them regarding the league then it seems that as well as getting the "rub of the green" and getting "lucky" that refs get blindsided and drawn into the vortex of "goodwill" towards that team.

 

As Chelsea grew so too did the calls on the park. Remember Terry's diving handed save against us when they were going for the league. Crazy call not given right in front of the league. And it happened again if I remember v Chelsea that season too. Carvalho I think it was although I could be wrong.

 

Added to that is the fear most refs have of Ferguson and how sucessful they've been and how parts of the media have been afraid to step up and say what they see.

 

I think Rafa has helped journos and probably other managers as well over the last 5 months with his so called "rant" I don't ever remember Rafa having such praise and backup before that rant which was highlighted when Fat Sam and Furguson gave their obvious 2 pronged attack the other week and yet it was Rafa who was supported.

 

Perhaps the tide is turning as we end up getting closer to challenging......

[smithdown]

If you think the league is bent then that is up to you. Personally if I thought the league was bent I would have nothing to do with football.

 

I'm within touching distance of exactly that sentiment.

 

(btw, is this the real NWR or just someone in his house?)

Edited April 26, 2009 by smithdown

[Romario]

I think there is some truth to this and have for a long time. I also think that a huge amount of folks from lower/smaller teams (whatever you want to call them) who would probably say the same about us being a big team and getting favourable decisions at times.

 

I think once a team is established as a "big team" and momentum is with them regarding the league then it seems that as well as getting the "rub of the green" and getting "lucky" that refs get blindsided and drawn into the vortex of "goodwill" towards that team.

 

As Chelsea grew so too did the calls on the park. Remember Terry's diving handed save against us when they were going for the league. Crazy call not given right in front of the league. And it happened again if I remember v Chelsea that season too. Carvalho I think it was although I could be wrong.

 

Added to that is the fear most refs have of Ferguson and how sucessful they've been and how parts of the media have been afraid to step up and say what they see.

 

I think Rafa has helped journos and probably other managers as well over the last 5 months with his so called "rant" I don't ever remember Rafa having such praise and backup before that rant which was highlighted when Fat Sam and Furguson gave their obvious 2 pronged attack the other week and yet it was Rafa who was supported.

 

Perhaps the tide is turning as we end up getting closer to challenging......

oops

Crazy call not given right in front of the Ref

[Redray]

It's not bent, it's skewed.

[DJS]

I dont expect any of you to agree with me but if you dont win the PL this season its down to your inability to score and kill of some of the smaller teams and too many draws, its not because the league is bent.

 

Perhaps if legitimate goals werent ruled out for no reason, we'd have less draws.

[Benzo-13]

It's morally corrupt and ethically bent.

[NWR]

I'm within touching distance of exactly that sentiment.

 

(btw, is this the real NWR or just someone in his house?)

 

Its me, the other was the missus.

 

In answer to Carrafan. Could it be that if the top 4 get favours then we are the biggest of the lot and so we get more favours.

I dont know is the answer.

[DonRafa]

Its me, the other was the missus.

 

In answer to Carrafan. Could it be that if the top 4 get favours then we are the biggest c**** so we get more favours.

I dont know is the answer.

 

Fixed that for you

[Zoob]

Could it be that if the top 4 get favours then we are the biggest of the lot and so we get more favours.

I dont know is the answer.

 

Yes - it could well be (if by Biggest you mean has the most influence on the FA and Refs). I think that over the average season, teams below the top 4 get an approximately even number of good and bad decisions. Refs aren't scared of upsetting their managers and as long as they don't make too many absolute howlers, they know their career will be ok. Most of the time, at least in games against lower teams, the good and bad decisions will even out.

 

Teams in the top 4 tend to get more borderline (or even incorrect) decisions go their way when playing against teams below them. But the gap between how many dodgy decisions United get and how many dodgy decisions others in the top 4 get, is huge.

 

I think Liverpool benefited slightly against hull, both home and away, but were also on the wrong end of a bad decision at home to Stoke, where a 2nd minute goal was wrongly disallowed. So, I can think of 2 games where Liverpool 'got lucky' decisions (and Hull at home only turned a potential loss into a draw - a difference of 1 point).

 

If you can add any other Liverpool games where we've had outrageous decisions go our way, please do. If you haven't seen enough of our games then you're not really in any position to say that we get as many dodgy decisions as you.

 

You've been given 2 outrageous pens (1 yesterday and 1 at home to Bolton), both were match turning events. for your second goal yesterday, the ref was about to blow for a foul and then waved play on - as if to give you the advantage after your foul won you possession.

 

For your winning goal against Villa, Evra took out Ashley young before the ball reached him. It was the most blatant of fouls, which is why even O'neil - who loves united and Ferguson - ended up with an FA charge (that's what non- Ferguson managers get when they complain about the refs).

 

Against Stoke, Rooney and Ronaldo both could have been sent off in a game you were struggling to win. A stoke player was sent off for breaking the rules, but United players got away with it. playing against 10 men, you got a late winner.

 

Against Blackburn (at Ewood) Vidic fouled the keeper for your first goal (scored by Brown). It was the most obvious of fouls. Normally doing less to a keeper results in a freekick, but on this occasion, a blantant foul did not.

 

Against Blackburn and Everton at OT, both teams had shouts for penalties, shouts for penalties that were more reasonable than the one you were given yesterday, but obviously neither was given.

 

Against West Brom away, you were winning 1-0 when West Brom's captain was wrongly sent off. You went on to win 5-0 (not saying you would have failed to win the game without the incorrect sending off, but sending off ensured end of contest.

 

That's 8 games (over 1 in every 5 league matches) where decisions have gone massively in your favour.

 

The West Brom and Everton games were the only ones where you were already winning when the ref mad a bad decision in your favour. So even if we dismiss this game and half of the other games with terrible decisions that have gone in your favour, (and say you would have won those games anyway), even if we say that dodgy decisions in your favour have only gifted you an extra 6 points, those 6 points mean you're 3 points ahead of Liverpool with a game in hand instead of being 3 points behind with a game in hand.

[Nebraska Red]

we can argue about this until we are blue in the face.

 

with so much money involved, the game has to have some level of bentness (is this a word) in it?

 

until the FA gets to grips with dodgy, inconsistent refereeing nothing will change.

 

until the FA has someone in charge who has a pair and will stand up to Slurgie and others, nothing will change.

 

if we saw consistent reffing, you could excuse a few "mistakes" here and there. however, we don't and we see Gomes booked for 'giving away" a dodgy PK, but Reina doesn't get booked for precisely the same thing.

 

as Liverpool fans we are always going to focus on Man U, but we aren't the only fans to do this any more. how many teams in the drop zone would be better off points wise had they not been on the receiving end of the "gifts" handed out to Man U?

[Stevie H]

i think some fans are doing their utmost at the moment to maintain that corruption in the game is inconceivable, when it clearly isn't.

[richwilks]

i think some fans are doing their utmost at the moment to maintain that corruption in the game is inconceivable, when it clearly isn't.

 

 

That's true. There could never be any corruption in the game. Just ask anyone in Italy.

[Stevie H]

That's true. There could never be any corruption in the game. Just ask anyone in Italy.

there's been corruption in spain in recent years too and in germany there was the referee buying scandal. don't see why it should necessarily be any different in england which is after all the richest league. notwithstanding that bullsh*t sense of english fair play crap which comes into the debate any time anyone in the media dares mention it.

[Des]

I am waiting for Wenger to come out with a "We are scared to go to OT this week because we fear the ref will be biased towards United and will give them a penalty or send one of our players off" b******s seeing as it worked for Moyes last week and a stone wall penalty was not given.

 

If you think the league is bent then that is up to you. Personally if I thought the league was bent I would have nothing to do with football.

 

Fact is that the top 4 get a lot more decisions go their way. Both United and Liverpool got game turning decisions yesterday, I have no doubt Arsenal got one or two today. Thats the way it has been here for years. All the old hacks say that Liverpool got them a lot when they were winning the league all the time, but its more noticeable now because almost all games are live on tv and analysed and scrutinised to death.

 

I dont expect any of you to agree with me but if you dont win the PL this season its down to your inability to score and kill of some of the smaller teams and too many draws, its not because the league is bent.

 

What a f*cking surprise to see you back on the forum.

[Woodsyla]

I am waiting for Wenger to come out with a "We are scared to go to OT this week because we fear the ref will be biased towards United and will give them a penalty or send one of our players off" b******s seeing as it worked for Moyes last week and a stone wall penalty was not given.

 

If you think the league is bent then that is up to you. Personally if I thought the league was bent I would have nothing to do with football.

 

Fact is that the top 4 get a lot more decisions go their way. Both United and Liverpool got game turning decisions yesterday, I have no doubt Arsenal got one or two today. Thats the way it has been here for years. All the old hacks say that Liverpool got them a lot when they were winning the league all the time, but its more noticeable now because almost all games are live on tv and analysed and scrutinised to death.

 

I dont expect any of you to agree with me but if you dont win the PL this season its down to your inability to score and kill of some of the smaller teams and too many draws, its not because the league is bent.

Ok, the league is not bent but clearly referees who referee United are under more pressure because Ferguson has the power to remove them from the big fixtures if he is not happy with them.

 

Webb gave that penalty because of the penalty that Ferguson screamed about in the FA Cup. Ferguson has let it be known that he was unhappy at the refereeing he got in the semi-final and the next marginal decision goes your way.

 

It might not be bent but it isn't acceptable either. No other manager exerts an influence like that.

[Knoxy]

It's a huge advantage for the Mancs, and ultimately one that could cost us the title this year

[Stevie H]

It might not be bent but it isn't acceptable either. No other manager exerts an influence like that.

they don't. but it's a bit late in the day for us to expect any sportsmanship from that classless c*nt.

[Woodsyla]

if we saw consistent reffing, you could excuse a few "mistakes" here and there. however, we don't and we see Gomes booked for 'giving away" a dodgy PK, but Reina doesn't get booked for precisely the same thing.

 

Carrick was clean through, Gomes had to go, unless the referee wasn't sure a foul had been committed of course ........

[Gilps]

there's been corruption in spain in recent years too and in germany there was the referee buying scandal. don't see why it should necessarily be any different in england which is after all the richest league. notwithstanding that bullsh*t sense of english fair play crap which comes into the debate any time anyone in the media dares mention it.

 

Don't forget Marseillie's antics under Tapie. When there have been proven cases of corruption in just about every other major European footballing nation, it would be incredibly naive to believe that it couldn't happen here. Yet, as you say, the majority opinion still seems to be that us good honest Brits would never do anything like that.

[cymrococh]

It's not bent, it's skewed.

spot on.

 

The mancs would be wetting themselves at these threads.

[Woodsyla]

they don't. but it's a bit late in the day for us to expect any sportsmanship from that classless c*nt.

Thankfully he's f***ing off shortly, hopefully his replacement wont be able to exert the same level of influence as he does.