Jordan Henderson, Phil Jones v Shelvey, Spearing, Wilson etc

[Chewie]

in the past week both we and the scum have forked out shed loads for two lads who have developed their careers at clubs like Sunderland and Blackburn. Is it the case that these guys are genuinely just better footballers than some of the players in our youth ands reserve ranks, or are they maybe marginally better but have been given more opportunities at the top level and so have 'proved' themselves (if that is possible given the short span of their careers to date...)

 

it is obvious we are developing our own young players from within but for these young players what is the better route to success... actually playing first team level football regularly in the PL at the age of 19-20 with everyone saying - he's a good player in the bandwagoning fashion that is the media circus surrounding the PL, or developing at the academy etc?

 

With Henderson and Jones is it a like for like with say Shelvey (only one year younger than Jordan) or Wilson, or are these the sort of players who, like Owen was at a young age, simply stand out and you know they are truly better than their peers and the best young player in their position by a country mile (cos on that note there has been nothing to suggest that Henderson has stood out like say Wilshere has)?

 

Any thoughts

 

Chewie

[The Hitman]

Think Henderson is much more developed than Shelvey,certainly.

He's played more football,for a start. Shelvey didn't start for Charlton when he was there,and that was in the 1st Division,so that's not necessarily due to us.

I think it depends upon the type of player.

 

I haven't seen any evidence from young players not starting for us,that have gone on to other clubs and done really well (e.g. Beardsley,Andy Cole types).

 

I just don't buy it. If they're good enough,they'll play.

 

The ones that don't play are players who won't make it,generally. They might one day play for a mid-low level PL side,but never good enough for us.

 

Like Adam Hammill and Danny Guthrie. Perfect examples of this.

[Tosh]

wonder what would have been made - publicity/awareness wise - of Henderson had he been playing at the Emirates instead of Wilshere....

[smithdown]

How much would we expect for Kelly or Flanagan?

[David Hodgson]

How much would we expect for Kelly or Flanagan?

 

I was thinking this. Would anyone swap Kelly now for 'future England captain' Phil Jones ? It's not a 'no brainer' is it ?

[schmuckdonald]

I'm very concerned by Kelly's possibly being made of styrofoam. Flanagan was called up because of injuries not because of his outstanding talent, although he is undoubtedly talented, so don't think he's the best example.

 

EDIT: Without the two injuries he's suffered in the last two seasons Kelly would probably be in a place to be competing for the England team in friendlies and would be valued around the £10m bracket or so. A few journo's said that had he not been injured he'd have been rated up towards the Wilshere bracket in the running for Young Players Of The Year.

Edited June 10, 2011 by schmuckdonald

[Chewie]

Tosh and Smithdown

 

totally agree with both points and was gonna make them when posting... just didn't want to overload the initial post with questions!! was actually thinking about Flanagan and how much it'd cost us to say buy him from the likes of Blackburn if he had started there...

 

probably the one player I can think of who didn't necessarily stand out at a young age, and in fact who took a lot of stick, but who benefitted from already being with us and being given opportunities to improve from within, is Carra? We probably would never have bought him...

 

I do wonder though if some of the slightly better than average young players would be better served and give themselves more opportunity to try and make it with mid table clubs, or even lower table clubs in the PL rather than slogging it out thinking they are gonna make it at us...? do well and then they might even make the move back, or at least have a career around the same type of clubs. Too many of the players who leave us are never really heard of again except for at lower league clubs

 

chewie

[StevieC]

How much would we expect for Kelly or Flanagan?

 

 

Weird isn't it. Kelly has played in a better team, at a higher level of competition and has the same level of representative honours as Jones, yet I can't for one second believe he'd ever be valued at £16m+ even if there was a bidding war for him.

[David Hodgson]

Weird isn't it. Kelly has played in a better team, at a higher level of competition and has the same level of representative honours as Jones, yet I can't for one second believe he'd ever be valued at £16m+ even if there was a bidding war for him.

 

I think the reason it's hard to visualise a big fee for a player like Kelly is that the top clubs simply don't let go of their youngsters who are on the rise and established in the first team. Not to each other, and certainly not to lesser clubs. There's simply np precedent for them being sold for big dough.

 

It's like Johnny Evans at United a year ago when he was much hyped, but you still wouldn't imagine him being viewed as a commodity as valuable as a Phil Jones now, even though then he was seen as the man to fill one of United's two central defensive slots for the next 10 years.

[allez les rouges]

Weird isn't it. Kelly has played in a better team, at a higher level of competition and has the same level of representative honours as Jones, yet I can't for one second believe he'd ever be valued at £16m+ even if there was a bidding war for him.

 

I can, he is an exceptional talent. He is in the same bracket as jones and Henderson

[D.Boon]

I would put Kelly in the same bracket as Henderson and Jones in terms of potential if not slightly ahead. I think we need to get him starting next season, even when everyone is fit.

[growler]

I think point is if we were seen to be selling Kelly, there would be a reason. The question is, if Liverpool were still under g and h, in two or three seasons time how much wood they take for players like robinson, sterling etc.

 

As it is, pep has praised our crop of youth players coming through to lead us to glory. Maybe an option to bring himin at some stage?

[Stevie H]

I'm very concerned by Kelly's possibly being made of styrofoam.

kelly's probably still growing.

[Leo No.8]

I would put Kelly in the same bracket as Henderson and Jones in terms of potential if not slightly ahead. I think we need to get him starting next season, even when everyone is fit.

 

This may seem over the top, but if he's fit going into next season Kelly would be the first defender at the club I'd have on the teamsheet - whether thats at right back or centre half.

[Stevie H]

This may seem over the top, but if he's fit going into next season Kelly would be the first defender at the club I'd have on the teamsheet - whether thats at right back or centre half.

it is over the top.

[Leo No.8]

it is over the top.

 

Meh, its how I feel Stevie - I'm Kelly's biggest fan...

[Cobs]

it is over the top.

 

esp. when you don't know where you're going to play him !!

[Leo No.8]

esp. when you don't know where you're going to play him !!

 

No I do - if we buy a top left back then Johnson goes over to right back and Kelly plays centre half. If we don't buy a left back then Kelly stays right and Johnson left.

[Stevie H]

Meh, its how I feel Stevie - I'm Kelly's biggest fan...

kelly's never played a top flight match at centre back has he?

[Leo No.8]

kelly's never played a top flight match at centre back has he?

 

He hasn't, but when he does he'll be f*cking boss...

 

I'd like to see him playing in the middle in pre season to get comfortable with it personally.

[Woodsyla]

I'd like to see him playing in the middle in pre season to get comfortable with it personally.

This bit I agree with. I'd really like to see Kelly and Agger/Skrtel in preseason.

[épieur]

Kelly and Agger - two defenders with good pace, decent in their and comfortable with the ball at their feet.

 

Think you have to go back to Hansen/Lawrenson to find our last pairing looking anything like that.

[anfield11]

I'm thinking maybe I'm the odd one out, but I kind of like Flanagan better than Kelly as a RB, so hopefully Kelly will become a really top CB.

[Leo No.8]

I'm thinking maybe I'm the odd one out, but I kind of like Flanagan better than Kelly as a RB, so hopefully Kelly will become a really top CB.

 

The last home game of the season - I felt like I saw Flanagan as being potentially special for the first time. I know he'd done brilliantly well in the games he'd played before that, but I saw it as him feeling his way and concentrating on doing a solid job defensively (which he really did). Against Spurs when we were trying to come from behind, he started to really fly up and down the right and he looked so much more dynamic getting forward and overlapping.

 

I think he'll be putting a lot of pressure on whoever has got the job at right back next season, both he and Kelly could be fantastic players for this club for years to come. Its another reason I'd like Kelly to move inside - because I already like Johnson and Flanagan a lot, whilst I'm not so keen on our current group of centre halves. Agger is too injury prone, Skrtel improved under Clarke but has still never convinced me and Carra can only have a couple of seasons left.

 

Even if we sign a big money centre half, I still see Kelly playing games there this season and being a leader there when Carra steps down in years to come.

[Alonso]

One things for certain we could have a top quality back line for the next 10 years plus with:

 

Flanagan Kelly Wisdom Robinson

 

Really hope Wisdom gets a few games next season to aid his development. Could be our Phil Jones!!