Can the supporters save the club?

[Maldini]

I just noticed that ShareLiverpool updated their site a couple of weeks back with the following:

 

http://www.shareliverpoolfc.co.uk/index.ph...pporters-direct

 

Supporters Direct released the following statement on Wednesday 10 June.

 

'Supporters Direct, the independent supporters’ trust initiative that is backed by MPs from all parties, is working with supporters of Liverpool Football Club to investigate a plan to make Liverpool owned and run by its fans, like European Champions Barcelona.

 

Both of the main Liverpool supporters’ campaign groups, the Spirit of Shankly supporters’ union and fans’ buy-out group ShareLiverpoolFC, together with local businesses and politicians, have been engaged in dialogue to inform the drafting of a business plan and a bid to take control of the football club.

 

 

 

Dave Boyle, Chief Executive of Supporters Direct, expressed enthusiasm for the supporters’ aims:

 

“We are working with representatives of ShareLiverpoolFC, Spirit of Shankly and the business community in order to develop a viable fan ownership proposal. We are hopeful that the various parties involved will soon be in a position to present their joint proposal.

 

“It’s pretty clear that whoever owns the club will have massive debts, which will be paid for by Liverpool fans over the coming years, so why shouldn’t Liverpool fans be the ones owning the club since they’ll be paying for it? It’s the difference between paying the mortgage for your landlord or paying for it on your own house.”

 

Liverpool FC’s financial position is precarious, with transfer funds limited and auditors KPMG expressing reservations about the club’s ability to continue as a going concern. '

 

Interesting timing considering Kilfoyle's statements in the week and Moores' resignation. Are we about to see a renewed effort for fan ownership?

 

There are a lot of questions to be answered if that's the case.

 

- What model should a potential fan takeover implement? (one member one vote or a tiered membership system?)

- What would encourage you to get involved?

- What are the deal-breakers?

- What happens once the revolution is successful?

 

If this is going down I think we need to let them know what we think would work, otherwise there'll be chaos afterwards.

[Sion]

I mentioned a while ago the only possible SL scheme I can see working is where not everyone is equal. Either a well off liverpool fan buys a large % and SL buy a minority stake, or they allow people to buy more than 1 share. Even then i have my doubts about whether it could be sustained without continued investment but i would support either as it's better than what we currently have. I'd also worry about getting the right people involved. Rogan isn't one of these, we'd need experienced business men, with at least a few having no emotional tie to the club. Otherwise it could be SOS on a grand scale, amateur lads trying to do a professional job, which would be a disaster.

 

100 000 people paying 5k just isn't viable even without the credit crunch though.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Sion

[surf]

I'm wary of supporter ownership turning us into another Real Madrid, but without government money to fund the purchases.

Also, i agree with Sion about 100,000 putting in 5k each isn't realistic. If you allow individuals to buy 10 or even 100 shares each you're not really giving them more power, as 100 votes out of 100,000 is pretty insignificant. It would make the goal a whole lot more obtainable though. But I guess it doesn't feel right if you've got a share, but the guy down the road has 10.

[fyds]

I'm wary of supporter ownership turning us into another Real Madrid, but without government money to fund the purchases.

Also, i agree with Sion about 100,000 putting in 5k each isn't realistic. If you allow individuals to buy 10 or even 100 shares each you're not really giving them more power, as 100 votes out of 100,000 is pretty insignificant. It would make the goal a whole lot more obtainable though. But I guess it doesn't feel right if you've got a share, but the guy down the road has 10.

This is the single biggest problem with it being taken seriously seriously - where is the money coming from? 100,000 x 5k is just not practicable. Personally, I could just about stretch to it but then I'm middle aged and well-paid - even so, I would want far more information and guarantees about what's what before parting with such an amount which is not piddling by any means, and way beyond what most could afford.

 

The only way to do this is to allow multiple purchases of shares for those who can afford to pay for them and trust the enterprise - which again I doubt is going to be enough, but it has a better chance than the alternative.

[Rimbeux]

It would have to be a socio thing with annual subscription rather than a shareholding. The only way to get it done would be to find a bank, institution or some wealthy collection able to fund the initial purchase and be repaid over time, as much as 20 years.

[Zoob]

Think 160 odd views and 4/5 replies to this thread says a lot about the confusion, uncertainty and helplessness (rather than apathy) that many fans are feeling. I'd love Share Liverpool to work, but as others have pointed out, I just don't really see how it can be viable given the amount of money needed and the fact that most individuals can't afford the sort of money that would actually give them any meaningful say.

[Stevie H]

It would have to be a socio thing with annual subscription rather than a shareholding. The only way to get it done would be to find a bank, institution or some wealthy collection able to fund the initial purchase and be repaid over time, as much as 20 years.

agree, it would have to be a socio model which is based on a genuine one member, one vote structure. having some members more equal than others basedon financial means isn't a way forward.

 

think there's a real sensible debate to be had about this but it needs the right kind of drive and leadership as well as the ability to pull the current various factions together.

[cymrococh]

Think 160 odd views and 4/5 replies to this thread says a lot about the confusion, uncertainty and helplessness (rather than apathy) that many fans are feeling. I'd love Share Liverpool to work, but as others have pointed out, I just don't really see how it can be viable given the amount of money needed and the fact that most individuals can't afford the sort of money that would actually give them any meaningful say.

Agree with this.

[growler]

Imagine if Moores had 3 braincells instead of just the one. He could have turned the club into a trust with 51%. gone out as a legend. now he doesn't even have the balls to stay in the boardroom.

 

I think the opprtunity has passed. WE can only hope that a future buyer, allows the fans to own a percentage of the club.

 

If the FA Cared about football, they would make some rules about fan representation in the boardroom and supporter ownership.

[Billy Dane]

Think the opportunity for the fans to own the club has long since gone. There is too much money involved at the top end of football now for a new fans co-operative to emerge. I can't see Share Liverpool finding 100,00 people to cough up £5000 and then persuading the owners (current or new ones) to sell up.

[Maldini]

I mentioned a while ago the only possible SL scheme I can see working is where not everyone is equal. Either a well off liverpool fan buys a large % and SL buy a minority stake, or they allow people to buy more than 1 share. Even then i have my doubts about whether it could be sustained without continued investment but i would support either as it's better than what we currently have. I'd also worry about getting the right people involved. Rogan isn't one of these, we'd need experienced business men, with at least a few having no emotional tie to the club. Otherwise it could be SOS on a grand scale, amateur lads trying to do a professional job, which would be a disaster.

 

100 000 people paying 5k just isn't viable even without the credit crunch though.

 

I think it's pretty clear the 5k idea is dead, it's just not feasible anymore. I doubt that's what they have in mind though, they more than anyone must know, they're the ones who know how many applicants they had.

 

They may not need £500m though, if RBS call in the loans and let a fans group take over the loans then they could get the ball rolling with as little as £25m. 250,000 people paying an annual membership fee of £100 is very very do-able, it also allows you to go back to the well every year which isn't the case with a £5k contribution.

 

I'm wary of supporter ownership turning us into another Real Madrid, but without government money to fund the purchases.

Also, i agree with Sion about 100,000 putting in 5k each isn't realistic. If you allow individuals to buy 10 or even 100 shares each you're not really giving them more power, as 100 votes out of 100,000 is pretty insignificant. It would make the goal a whole lot more obtainable though. But I guess it doesn't feel right if you've got a share, but the guy down the road has 10.

 

Yup, a hierarchical membership scheme is doomed to failure, it'd breed distrust.

 

It would have to be a socio thing with annual subscription rather than a shareholding. The only way to get it done would be to find a bank, institution or some wealthy collection able to fund the initial purchase and be repaid over time, as much as 20 years.

 

See above though. It seems like they're trying to pressure RBS to call in the loans in the public interest, they have MPs making statements which seem to be the beginning of a move towards that at least.

 

Think 160 odd views and 4/5 replies to this thread says a lot about the confusion, uncertainty and helplessness (rather than apathy) that many fans are feeling. I'd love Share Liverpool to work, but as others have pointed out, I just don't really see how it can be viable given the amount of money needed and the fact that most individuals can't afford the sort of money that would actually give them any meaningful say.

 

This is why the debate needs to be had before any move is made. We've seen what happens with SOS when an initally promising movement is let flounder. In order for this to be successful it would need almost consensus approval. Bringing a proposal forward that could divide the fanbase could once again f*** up our chance of changing the club for the better.

 

agree, it would have to be a socio model which is based on a genuine one member, one vote structure. having some members more equal than others basedon financial means isn't a way forward.

 

think there's a real sensible debate to be had about this but it needs the right kind of drive and leadership as well as the ability to pull the current various factions together.

 

Exactly, the more people who contribute to the debate the better. Moves seem to be afoot, and if they're being made in our name then we deserve to have a say.

 

Think the opportunity for the fans to own the club has long since gone. There is too much money involved at the top end of football now for a new fans co-operative to emerge. I can't see Share Liverpool finding 100,00 people to cough up £5000 and then persuading the owners (current or new ones) to sell up.

 

...what about persuading 250k people to cough up £100 and persuading RBS to call in the loans?

Edited June 22, 2009 by Maldini

[surf]

The socio thing with annual subscriptions just might work. Anyone know how many members clubs like Real and Barca have?

 

If numbers & cash don't add up you could even allow members to purchase annual membership in advance to raise a bit more cash in the first year, as 250k members @ £100 is still only £25m. Nowhere near enough to the £500m or so needed.

[Billy Dane]

and if SL manage to persuade RBS/H&G to sell up, we still need to find the funds to build the stadium.

[Rimbeux]

The socio thing with annual subscriptions just might work. Anyone know how many members clubs like Real and Barca have?

 

If numbers & cash don't add up you could even allow members to purchase annual membership in advance to raise a bit more cash in the first year, as 250k members @ £100 is still only £25m. Nowhere near enough to the £500m or so needed.

 

 

£25m a year for 20 years

 

 

Barca have 150k according to Wiki

[Rimbeux]

and if SL manage to persuade RBS/H&G to sell up, we still need to find the funds to build the stadium.

 

 

Blanket refinance of £500m over the £350m of thereabouts current borrowing (some of which is undrawn stadium funding) should provide a fair wedge to get started, naming rights to follow, maybe a top up to finish it it. Aim for socio subsciptions of £25m a year to repay and service the £500m, looking for the extra £30m plus earnings from the stadium to move things on. It would take a sympathetic lender to say the least.

[Maldini]

The socio thing with annual subscriptions just might work. Anyone know how many members clubs like Real and Barca have?

 

If numbers & cash don't add up you could even allow members to purchase annual membership in advance to raise a bit more cash in the first year, as 250k members @ £100 is still only £25m. Nowhere near enough to the £500m or so needed.

 

£500m isn't needed if RBS call in the loans and let the new fan owners take them over

 

and if SL manage to persuade RBS/H&G to sell up, we still need to find the funds to build the stadium.

 

The same as G&H did, as the ShareLiverpool statement in the first post says, we as fans are paying for the loans anyway, we might as well get the benefit of it!

[surf]

£25m a year for 20 years

 

Barca have 150k according to Wiki

If i was a bank i'd have trouble with that. First of all, raising £25m the first year might be easier due to the massive immediate sentiment, but there could be a risk about sustainability. You could of course argue the opposite and suggest numbers will only grow once new fans are reached, but it's a risk none the less. Secondly, in terms of NPV £25m over 20 years is a lot less than £500m now.

 

But i shouldn't argue the point though cause the £500m figure is plucked out of the air to begin with and a socio model (rather that a one-off 5k each buyout) is the only way this is going to work.

 

Regarding the new stadium. extra revenue of £30m-£40m a year should mean it finances itself within 10 years (although someone like boohog will give a much sharper answer).

Edited June 22, 2009 by surf

[Maldini]

I posted this over on TLW as well and Fran from SOS posted this:

 

thats basically what "this" is, SL and SOS working together based on the feedback and questions about the share liverpool approach, put to them in the last year by the fanbase.

 

 

Ant stop getting hung up of the 5 grand thing!!!

 

it would be more like £500????

 

everyone who pays the fee has a share/vote, people are then welcome to put in as much more as they like but only keep the one vote.

 

This could be done by a share/dividend system, so if they ever wanted to sell the extra shares on there could be a profit, i'm not really a financial expert so don't pay too much attention to the last bit haha.

[Knox_Harrington]

Blanket refinance of £500m over the £350m of thereabouts current borrowing (some of which is undrawn stadium funding) should provide a fair wedge to get started, naming rights to follow, maybe a top up to finish it it. Aim for socio subsciptions of £25m a year to repay and service the £500m, looking for the extra £30m plus earnings from the stadium to move things on. It would take a sympathetic lender to say the least.

If the initial payment to take the loan could be made by wealthy altruistic LFC supporters clubbing together (and essentially throwing their money away) followed up by a simple one member one vote system (say 100 GBP p.a. for membership, free with season tickets) then it gives us another significant steady stream of income which can be pointed towards repaying debt and getting the stadium built.

 

It has to be one member one vote and membership has to be affordable. Some reds cannot be more equal than others.

[matty]

I have no faith in Share Liverpool. I signed up on their website and have never had one email from them. If they can't even communicate with the people they want to stump up cash, they may struggle to organise a modest libation in a brewery.

[fyds]

I have no faith in Share Liverpool. I signed up on their website and have never had one email from them. If they can't even communicate with the people they want to stump up cash, they may struggle to organise a modest libation in a brewery.

I think that's most fans latent fear - even those who wish them well.

[Paddy 66]

The whole issue is a very difficult one as I think the idea of fan ownership is an admirable one but I think its one that unfortunately isn't workable, certainly not if we want to comment in the tranfer market. I'm no financial expert but I don't think the models suggested are really viable, of course the other issue is who runs the club, would every member get a vote for say the CEO, board members, financial director etc? If so, it could lead to the best people not getting the job just the most popular which could cause all kinds of problems.

 

I think the best we can hope for and something which I think would be a step forward, is for the owner of the club to help raise finances for a new staduim to sell a percentage of the club via shares to fans, restricting the number of shares an individual can buy. As well as guaranteeing fan representation on the board.

 

To be honest I'm not sure we will see either happening but would be more likely to get the 2nd one, before we see club ownership by the fans and would probably be my preferred option.

[johngibo YPC]

I have no faith in Share Liverpool. I signed up on their website and have never had one email from them. If they can't even communicate with the people they want to stump up cash, they may struggle to organise a modest libation in a brewery.

 

I get emails off them all the time

Maybe you spelt yours wrong or something

[stressederic]

I get emails off them all the time

Maybe you spelt yours wrong or something

 

Yeah but you're a celeb. They'll want to use you in their advertising. Nobody gives a f*** about matty.

[johngibo YPC]

Yeah but you're a celeb. They'll want to use you in their advertising. Nobody gives a f*** about matty.

 

As if Rogan will share any of the limelight

And Knox is the YNWA celeb now anyway