A perspective on progress

[Swan Red]

Rodgers now has two seasons worth of figures to look at, I've broken the season down into halves.

 

2012/13 1st half.

Played 19 Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 6 Points 25

2012/2013 2nd half

Played 19 Won 10 Drawn 6 Lost 3 Points 36

20132014 1st half.

Played 19 Won 11 Drawn 3 Lost 5 Points 36

2013/2014 2nd half.

Played 19 Won 15 Drawn 3 Lost 1 points 48

 

Both seasons have a double digit increase in points in the second half of the season with 4 more wins in both cases. We also managed to equal a much improved second half of 2012/2013 in the first half of this. The signings of Sturridge and Coutinho were crucial to our performance in the second half of last season and Sturridge especially was important for us carrying that form across but we improved in the second half of this season without signing anyone.

 

The sample size is stupidly small and I'm not expecting us to get 48 from 57 in the first half of next season but it does point out to a consistent improvement in results across his time.

 

What also struck me earlier in the season was just how consistent our inconsistency was. In the first 3 sets of 5 games this season we took 10 points with 3 wins and a draw in the 4th we took 9 with 3 wins and the losses to City and Chelsea.

 

I know we have weaknesses in defence but we conceded the majority of our 50 goals in the second half of this season, 27 to 23 in the first.

[honourablegeorge]

Is it true we conceded mote goals this season than any other Prem season?

[D.Boon]

Big thing we will have to deal with next season is most teams taking Mourinhos tactics and repeating them. Stifle and hit on the break. Newcastle did the same yesterday and we really struggled to break them down and they looked dangerous on the counter.

 

We will have to find ways of getting through parked buses a lot next season without over committing.

Edited May 12, 2014 by D.Boon

[Ant]

Big thing we will have to deal with next season is most teams taking Mourinhos tactics and repeating them. Newcastle did the same yesterday and we really struggled to break them down.

 

We will have to find ways of getting through parked buses a lot next season.

 

I think this was mentioned on TAW, that Rodgers probably rues the fact he didn't have quality on the bench to change the game as opposed to anything defensively we may or may not have done wrong.

 

Throwing in a Willian, Salah etc would have made a difference v Chelsea had they played for us.

 

 

 

[fred milne]

Big thing we will have to deal with next season is most teams taking Mourinhos tactics and repeating them. Stifle and hit on the break. Newcastle did the same yesterday and we really struggled to break them down and they looked dangerous on the counter.

 

We will have to find ways of getting through parked buses a lot next season without over committing.

Sunderland played 3 at the back too IIRC. Reckon its something we will see a lot of from opposing teams next season.

 

Interesting that Rodgers went like for like after the break. Games like that underline the importance of Agger.

[RBM]

This needs a more expansive answer, but in short this season 3 more points wins us the title, and I think 89 points probably wins it most seasons. So it's a case of how get those extra few points out the side. Considering the run we had from January, we really did very little wrong, and when we conceded goals we often scored a load more than the opposition. It's all small, marginal incremental gains.

[Swan Red]

Improving seems a pretty granular process and making adjusting to the adjustments teams make a part of it. If we take the first half of Rodgers's first season as a baseline we've improved the squad clearly in one of the three windows yet the teams points per game has almost doubled.

 

We scored 3 against City at home and Palace away at a time when teams should have learned to defend against us, we've scored lots of goals in lots of games 4 or more 11 times this season. We may not score 100 goals next season and if we don't we'll have to concede fewer but assuming we keep Suarez, which I'm almost certain we will, then we'll still have the best strikeforce in the premiership and teams will no more be able to shut up shop against us as they will against City. We score loads of goals because we're good at scoring loads of goals not because other teams let us.

 

I think we get lost in the specifics of where an obvious improvement can be made while the ones we don't call beforehand are the organic ones that come from coaching and learning. That the defence is a problem is almost a truism yet they conceded 27 while we took 48 points from 57.

[surf]

we'll need a few things, all of which have been mentioned:

1) larger squad, options from the bench

2) better defensive setup

3) plan B when teams sit back

 

1. requires new players, obviously

 

2. requires new players and coaching. we've looked a bit poor at the back individually at times, but also as a group don't defend well. some of the goals we've conceded have been tactical f***ups and defending from set pieces hasn't been good enough. rodgers needs to address this and get someone in who can do this

 

3. requires coaching. is probably the easiest, we were playing a more possession based approach end of last season and beginning of this season. and apart from chelsea (who are defensive masters) few teams have stopped us getting goals. so i don't really think this is a problem.

 

Edited May 12, 2014 by surf

[cymrococh]

http://liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/162761-boss-our-philosophy-will-never-change

 

Brendan Rodgers insists Liverpool will improve all aspects of their game over the coming seasons – but warned opponents that the team's creative attacking approach will remain untouched.

 

The Northern Irishman's aggressive offensive philosophy, implemented to perfection by his players, has been the catalyst for Liverpool to rise from seventh to second place in the Barclays Premier League this season.

 

Rodgers' image adorned a banner prior to the final game of the campaign against Newcastle United on Sunday, which christened his current side 'A team that plays the Liverpool way' in a neat twist on the old Kop chant.

 

The flag was a graceful nod to how opponents the length and breadth of the country have been prised apart by his side during the past nine months as the Reds have rolled back the years with the fluency of their football.

 

The 41-year-old knows there is plenty of room for improvement, particularly defensively, but he insists the group will continue to evolve under the same ethos as they look to build on a remarkable amount of progress.

 

"The style will only be enhanced and improved," he explained to reporters following the final whistle on Sunday. "It doesn't change. The philosophy here is very much based on attacking creative football to win. We know where we need to improve.

 

"Our goals conceded this year here at home is up there with the top teams, as it should be because this is Anfield and we expect to win. Away from home in the big games we've been fine. We just need to be better and more concentrated whenever we're winning other games.

 

"We've conceded too many goals when we've scored five or six and that has cost us. We're going into the Champions League, an outstanding competition with some great teams. But we'll go in with the same idea. There will be no fear. We'll look forward to it.

 

"To get 16 wins out of 19 at home is absolutely fantastic for this group of players, who only two years ago really struggled to win games at home. To get 12 wins out of 14 at a pressure time of the season, I can only take my hat off to the players and how they've managed with that."

[RP]

It is easy for us to sit and say the whole back four and the keeper need replacing, but the margins are so fine and the level of improvement needed is so small that it's not usually about wholesale changes to either personnel or system(s).

 

In effect (and I know it doesn't work like this in real time in the real world), we were two goals away from winning the League. That's despite the fact that (I agree) there are a couple of fundamental flaws and seemingly obvious upgrades to personnel required in our defence.

 

The progress that Brendan has effected season-on-season doesn't need repeating on anything like the same scale next time round. Of course it gets harder as those marginal gains become more difficult to deliver, but we're on such a positive trajectory at the moment that a little more quality and more depth in the squad could really be all it takes.

 

For me, next season starts as one where we have to consolidate the progress of the last 18 months - if we can stay in the race as we head towards Christmas, that'll consolidate all the work done so far and for me confirm that we're genuine consistent challengers.

 

Can't wait.

[Earl Hafler]

Rodgers now has two seasons worth of figures to look at, I've broken the season down into halves.

 

2012/13 1st half.

Played 19 Won 6 Drawn 7 Lost 6 Points 25

2012/2013 2nd half

Played 19 Won 10 Drawn 6 Lost 3 Points 36

20132014 1st half.

Played 19 Won 11 Drawn 3 Lost 5 Points 36

2013/2014 2nd half.

Played 19 Won 15 Drawn 3 Lost 1 points 48

 

Both seasons have a double digit increase in points in the second half of the season with 4 more wins in both cases. We also managed to equal a much improved second half of 2012/2013 in the first half of this. The signings of Sturridge and Coutinho were crucial to our performance in the second half of last season and Sturridge especially was important for us carrying that form across but we improved in the second half of this season without signing anyone.

 

The sample size is stupidly small and I'm not expecting us to get 48 from 57 in the first half of next season but it does point out to a consistent improvement in results across his time.

 

What also struck me earlier in the season was just how consistent our inconsistency was. In the first 3 sets of 5 games this season we took 10 points with 3 wins and a draw in the 4th we took 9 with 3 wins and the losses to City and Chelsea.

 

I know we have weaknesses in defence but we conceded the majority of our 50 goals in the second half of this season, 27 to 23 in the first.

 

Interesting that we maintained the good form from the close of last season into this, particularly as we were without Suarez out for a few games.

Second half of this season will be based on many things but the emergence of Sterling as a player to be feared being one of the main ones.

 

http://liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/162761-boss-our-philosophy-will-never-change

 

Brendan Rodgers insists Liverpool will improve all aspects of their game over the coming seasons – but warned opponents that the team's creative attacking approach will remain untouched.

 

The Northern Irishman's aggressive offensive philosophy, implemented to perfection by his players, has been the catalyst for Liverpool to rise from seventh to second place in the Barclays Premier League this season.

 

Rodgers' image adorned a banner prior to the final game of the campaign against Newcastle United on Sunday, which christened his current side 'A team that plays the Liverpool way' in a neat twist on the old Kop chant.

 

The flag was a graceful nod to how opponents the length and breadth of the country have been prised apart by his side during the past nine months as the Reds have rolled back the years with the fluency of their football.

 

The 41-year-old knows there is plenty of room for improvement, particularly defensively, but he insists the group will continue to evolve under the same ethos as they look to build on a remarkable amount of progress.

 

"The style will only be enhanced and improved," he explained to reporters following the final whistle on Sunday. "It doesn't change. The philosophy here is very much based on attacking creative football to win. We know where we need to improve.

 

"Our goals conceded this year here at home is up there with the top teams, as it should be because this is Anfield and we expect to win. Away from home in the big games we've been fine. We just need to be better and more concentrated whenever we're winning other games.

 

"We've conceded too many goals when we've scored five or six and that has cost us. We're going into the Champions League, an outstanding competition with some great teams. But we'll go in with the same idea. There will be no fear. We'll look forward to it.

 

"To get 16 wins out of 19 at home is absolutely fantastic for this group of players, who only two years ago really struggled to win games at home. To get 12 wins out of 14 at a pressure time of the season, I can only take my hat off to the players and how they've managed with that."

 

The part in bold isn't true.

Good to hear that we'll remain an aggressive team but we need to be smarter about when the fullbacks go and who's staying back. Need to work on communication with keeper and back four.

 

Lost to City, Chelsea ( unfortunate in both matches and had Webb at Stamford Bridge ) and Arsenal away. Comfortably beat Utd and Spurs, drew with Everton.

 

Villa and Southampton at home - shouldn't be happening. We don't appear to have learned about Villa's threat because their default system and style exposes our weaknesses at the back.

Southampton was a set piece which has been causing us problems for two seasons.

 

 

Much to look forward to.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Earl Hafler

[Tosh]

16 from 19 at home great to see

[cymrococh]

I think he was spot on when he spoke about game management the other day.

 

Suarez stood there at Palace shaking his head bemused at what he was seeing, but why wasn't he shouting at players to get back and defend the lead? Why didn't get in Stevie's ear to sort out the defence?

 

These are the margins that we're talking about.

[Swan Red]

We'd lost Suarez for the end of the previous season. I think Sterling's made a pretty significant contribution to the second half of this season just as Sturridge and Coutinho did the season before. But I think Henderson is improving all the time, Gerrard being moved deeper has played really well for us but both Coutinho and Henderson have further room to improve certainly in terms of goals with both having scored fewer than Skrtel.

 

What is interesting is that Suarez scored 19 goals in the first half of the season where he missed the first 5. We took 26 points from those 14 games at an average of 1.85 points per game. He scored 12 in the following 19 games where we took an average of 2.5 points per game. It has to be due to the other players standing up in the second half of the season and gives me good reason to be optimistic going into next.

[matty]

I don't go along at all with the idea that teams will 'learn' how to play against us as a result of this season.

 

Firstly, we've been playing like this for months, and having just won 11 in a row, it doesn't really teach us that managers are learning how to deal with us over the course of this season - so how they work it out in the close season I don't really know.

 

Secondly, we don't win games through a 'system' that can easily be countered (i.e. we don't have only one method of scoring). We win games through having some really great players, whose skills are very difficult to defend against.

 

Thirdly, the kind of defensive discipline which Chelsea showed against us is very hard to keep up for 90 minutes (Mourinho is capable of delivering it), and very hard/impossible to replicate without quality players.

 

Fourthly, in the games where we could say to have 'struggled' to break them down - Sunderland, Newcastle, you can point to other factors, rather than a 'system failure'. In particular, a lack of quality off the bench when the players on the pitch aren't really delivering.

 

Let's not forget that both Suarez and Sturridge suffered a real dip in form over the last 7-8 games of this season. They were not as good as they had previously been. We kept winning because we had so much quality elsewhere.

 

I have a lot of confidence that, with the right signings this summer, we can compete for the whole of next season and win it. However, the big factor is the Champions League. Even the best teams will drop points before and after CL games. How we handle those games, particularly who we pick and who we rest, will be key to a challenge.

 

We need at least 7 more players next season who are capable of delivering results. Players like Suso and Alberto become more important. But it is defence and midfield where additions must be made. 2 starting defenders, and 2 strong midfielders are a must.

[RP]

We need at least 7 more players next season who are capable of delivering results. Players like Suso and Alberto become more important. But it is defence and midfield where additions must be made. 2 starting defenders, and 2 strong midfielders are a must.

 

 

Do you mean 7 new signings or 7 players who haven't contributed this year (i.e. some new signings plus the likes of Alberto and Suso who you mention, plus Illori/Borinin/whoever)?

[Earl Hafler]

I think he was spot on when he spoke about game management the other day.

 

Suarez stood there at Palace shaking his head bemused at what he was seeing, but why wasn't he shouting at players to get back and defend the lead? Why didn't get in Stevie's ear to sort out the defence?

 

These are the margins that we're talking about.

 

Aye. Same could be said of the manager for that game, though. Why are you sending Coutinho or Moses on when our lead is vanishing and the defence looks wide open ? Send Agger on, make it more difficult.

 

Inexperienced squad and manager. Will have learned from the title challenge and with a few more talented players we should be able to have another crack next season whilst competing in the CL.

[matty]

Do you mean 7 new signings or 7 players who haven't contributed this year (i.e. some new signings plus the likes of Alberto and Suso who you mention, plus Illori/Borinin/whoever)?

I think we need 7 signings. We've played this year with an effective squad of, what, about 14? By effective I mean players who have made a serious and positive contribution. The 'normal' starting 11, Mignolet, Johnson, Flanagan, Sakho, Skrtel, Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho, Sterling, Sturridge, Suarez - plus Lucas, Allen, Agger. We can probably let Lucas go and maybe Agger, which means we need 7 new players, plus serious contributions from a few who've barely played or been out on loan and could come in and perform.

 

Thinking in terms of an 'effective' squad of 21 or 22 to cope with CL and maybe cup runs.

[Swan Red]

I think he was spot on when he spoke about game management the other day.

 

Suarez stood there at Palace shaking his head bemused at what he was seeing, but why wasn't he shouting at players to get back and defend the lead? Why didn't get in Stevie's ear to sort out the defence?

 

These are the margins that we're talking about.

 

I think Palace is clearly an example of poor game management but it's one that's occasionally a feature of our play, we've let teams get back into games, Everton away two up, leading against City and Chelsea, letting Norwich get a sniff, Swansea, Sunderland similarly. I get I'm viewing those games retrospectively but we've ridden our luck in some games and dropped points in others. It seems we're getting the go forward and get the lead thing but not as often managing the game when we do. There's times we do, Spurs in both games, Arsenal, Everton etc and it's a trusim given those results but we can do it. The other results demonstrate we don't do it as consistently as we'd like.

 

This is where I think the organic development of the team is possibly more important than just adding players, we're in the position where we need to add significantly but adding that strength is only a part of the story. If we don't put in consistent performances we'll drop points, managing games is a big part of that but so is going out and doing a lot of what we're already doing.

[cymrococh]

I don't go along at all with the idea that teams will 'learn' how to play against us as a result of this season.

 

Firstly, we've been playing like this for months, and having just won 11 in a row, it doesn't really teach us that managers are learning how to deal with us over the course of this season - so how they work it out in the close season I don't really know.

 

Secondly, we don't win games through a 'system' that can easily be countered (i.e. we don't have only one method of scoring). We win games through having some really great players, whose skills are very difficult to defend against.

 

Thirdly, the kind of defensive discipline which Chelsea showed against us is very hard to keep up for 90 minutes (Mourinho is capable of delivering it), and very hard/impossible to replicate without quality players.

 

Fourthly, in the games where we could say to have 'struggled' to break them down - Sunderland, Newcastle, you can point to other factors, rather than a 'system failure'. In particular, a lack of quality off the bench when the players on the pitch aren't really delivering.

Agree with all that.

[RP]

I think we need 7 signings. We've played this year with an effective squad of, what, about 14? By effective I mean players who have made a serious and positive contribution. The 'normal' starting 11, Mignolet, Johnson, Flanagan, Sakho, Skrtel, Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho, Sterling, Sturridge, Suarez - plus Lucas, Allen, Agger. We can probably let Lucas go and maybe Agger, which means we need 7 new players, plus serious contributions from a few who've barely played or been out on loan and could come in and perform.

 

Thinking in terms of an 'effective' squad of 21 or 22 to cope with CL and maybe cup runs.

 

 

 

Big ask that, unless Ian Ayre has finally got round to reading The Dummies Guide to Footy Transfers.

 

I don't disagree with the logic though.

 

Personally, I'd let Skrtel go and keep Agger. I'd also keep Lucas. I was thinking we need maybe 6 or 7 new contributors next season to add to the mix, but assuming/hoping that we'd get maybe 2 or 3 of those from the pool of players out on loan - Ibe, Suso, Illori, Coady, Wisdom, Borini ... plus Alberto. There's seven there (and I've probably forgotten 1 or 2) but if we can get 3 (I know that might be a stretch) from that lot to contribute, I can see us adding as few as 3 new signings. But I'd expect those three to be proper players, no fill-ins or ones for the future this time round. Lallana would be a good start.

[Swan Red]

We need at least 7 more players next season who are capable of delivering results. Players like Suso and Alberto become more important. But it is defence and midfield where additions must be made. 2 starting defenders, and 2 strong midfielders are a must.

 

I also agree with this though I'd be looking for 5, ditching only one of Agger or Lucas and hoping that someone can step up, whether an Ibe, Teixeira Illori, but adding real quality.

 

I'm also with you on the system thing. I think Rodgers has a way he likes the game to be played but I think he's demonstrated a willingness to get his best players on the pitch and playing however that requires us to set up. I think he's adaptive enough that you give him proper quality players to work with, with very good players for all positions and he'll get us playing really good football however other teams try to set up against us.

[Gunga Din]

I dont think we need as many as 7 new signings. I think we need maybe 4 to go straight into the first team. A top quality midfielder, someone who can pass and tackle well, and someone who when needed, can defend well in front of the back 4. We need 2 new fullbacks, one for each side. and we need another attacker. I think Lallana might be ideal, simply because he can pay anywhere along the front and is very 2 footed. I think we might see other players come back from loan and maybe feature more, Borini as a 3rd striker, Ilori to press for a starting place in the back 4, and Suso as well. Theres also players like Ibe, McLoughlin, Smith and Rossiter who might push for regular squad places.

 

As for going out, Alberto and Aspas simply havent worked, Kolo has no future here, and of all the first teamers the only one id happily see leave is Johnson

[RP]

I also agree with this though I'd be looking for 5, ditching only one of Agger or Lucas and hoping that someone can step up, whether an Ibe, Teixeira Illori, but adding real quality.

 

I'm also with you on the system thing. I think Rodgers has a way he likes the game to be played but I think he's demonstrated a willingness to get his best players on the pitch and playing however that requires us to set up. I think he's adaptive enough that you give him proper quality players to work with, with very good players for all positions and he'll get us playing really good football however other teams try to set up against us.

 

 

 

Teixeira - that was the one I'd forgotten.

[matty]

Big ask that, unless Ian Ayre has finally got round to reading The Dummies Guide to Footy Transfers.

 

I don't disagree with the logic though.

 

Personally, I'd let Skrtel go and keep Agger. I'd also keep Lucas. I was thinking we need maybe 6 or 7 new contributors next season to add to the mix, but assuming/hoping that we'd get maybe 2 or 3 of those from the pool of players out on loan - Ibe, Suso, Illori, Coady, Wisdom, Borini ... plus Alberto. There's seven there (and I've probably forgotten 1 or 2) but if we can get 3 (I know that might be a stretch) from that lot to contribute, I can see us adding as few as 3 new signings. But I'd expect those three to be proper players, no fill-ins or ones for the future this time round. Lallana would be a good start.

The looming figure of Ayre hangs heavy over every talk of transfer targets...we can only pray that our performances and Brendan's ability do the talking, rather than the Walking Sidecar.

 

It would be nice to think that some of those you've mentioned will step up, but I'm not holding my breath - love to see us integrate players like Ibe, Ilori, Teixeira into the squad seamlessly next season but it takes a lot of faith.

 

I also agree with this though I'd be looking for 5, ditching only one of Agger or Lucas and hoping that someone can step up, whether an Ibe, Teixeira Illori, but adding real quality.

 

I'm also with you on the system thing. I think Rodgers has a way he likes the game to be played but I think he's demonstrated a willingness to get his best players on the pitch and playing however that requires us to set up. I think he's adaptive enough that you give him proper quality players to work with, with very good players for all positions and he'll get us playing really good football however other teams try to set up against us.

Exactly - what gives us such reason to be positive is the incredible improvement he's got out of players this year. Maybe I should believe that our youngsters will make that leap given what's happened to Sterling, Flanagan and Henderson.

 

Defence is main concern. We concede 20 fewer next year and we're champions, all things being equal. (Bearing in mind that conceding just 3 or 4 fewer would have made us champions this year)