This two defensive/holding midfield lark

[Mr. Biscan]

I know what you are thinking....Bu..Bu it worked last season? I know it did and it worked very well, we had confidence, we had a strong defence and desire. Torres and Gerrard where on fire when available and Xabi was sensational. Only one thing has changed, and that has been Xabi Alonso. Take him out of the equation and we have Masch, Lucas, Aqui and Gerrard 4 players who can occupy that area. At the beginning of the season we knew we where going to be without Aquilani, therefore we should have done the following IMO.

 

Yossi or Kuyt upfront with Torres, Gerrard back into midfield with Masch or Lucas, or on the right side. The thing I have noticed lately with this system is that the likes of Ngog or Kuyt who have played in the hole or upfront is that they have had to come into midfield to get the ball, even Torres did it when he was on the pitch in the first half. They get the ball in the centre circle, look forward and there is no one there. Kuyt isn't making the runs, Yossi yesterday especially wasn't getting into the game, and overall we are short of options.

 

When Reading got the ball, they had players way out wide, Agger looked incredibly uncomfortable, and Carra was always looking behind him. The Reading midfield got the ball and looked composed and always managed to find the right man. We by comparison looked desperately short of ideas. Back to the Gerrard situation, I know how lethal Gerrard and Torres are, but by the same token our midfield looks awful, it has no drive and isn't dynamic. Dirk Kuyt can run, Yossi does show glimpses but Lucas is absolutely awful and Mascherano's mind is elsewhere.

 

Gerrard is good enough to play in midfield, we know that, he has been one of the best in the world in that position. He is dynamic, he can get forward, push wide get back and pull the strings. He is the only player who can replace what Xabi gave us.

 

I know the time has come and gone now, Aqui is now fit and we look as if we are sticking with the two holding midfielders with Lucas going forward (Which he isn't good enough to do). But we still look as bad as we did without Aqui. We need a plan B and above all we need to change the system we are currently employing, just because something worked a year ago, 6 months ago or 5 years ago doesn't mean the same will stand. We need to change something, we can't go playing 1 striker upfront, no matter how good or bad at home.

 

I am utterly convinced that Torres needs a partner, Ngog or Torres or even Yossi. Our players are dyanamic, Yossi, Kuyt and Gerrard especially they can play left, right in the hole or the centre, and thats without even mentioning what Riera and Babel can do as well.

 

The way we have handled the Xabi depature has been criminal, and if Aquilani doesn't prove his worth soon then he will soon feel the pressure.

 

Thoughts?

[honourablegeorge]

We didn't play with two holding players last night.

[Mr. Biscan]

We didn't play with two holding players last night.

 

 

How did we set up then?

[mofus77]

We didn't play with two holding players last night.

 

 

Even is we did that's not the real problem with last night. To make the system work we need to have players in wide positions who can receive the ball and stretch the play.

 

How many times did we approach their box with 3-4 players standing within 5 yards of the D ?

[johngibo YPC]

And we played 4-4-2 Reading away

We can talk about formations all day, but if everyone is playing crap it doesn't matter

[Hassony]

And we played 4-4-2 Reading away

We can talk about formations all day, but if everyone is playing crap it doesn't matter

 

 

that's it really, you can talk about the owners, investments, zonal, formations, rotations.....etc until you are blue in the face, it doesn't really matter much if the players (and the manager) are performing as s*** as they have been

[Swipe]

Don't think AA is a holding midfielder, really.

 

His transfer has been a disaster this season, though. Have the season gone and still a Xabi-sized hole in our team.

 

Central midfield has been awful this season, apart from Masch who's done okay after a poor start.

[ChrisC]

It works well for teams with decent options upfront and on the wings.

 

Sadly without Torres and Gerrard we have neither. Yossi is good but too inconsistent.

[Mr. Biscan]

It works well for teams with decent options upfront and on the wings.

 

Sadly without Torres and Gerrard we have neither. Yossi is good but too inconsistent.

 

 

It worked well last season with the same players, without Alonso Obviously.

 

The way we have handled it has been awful, and the blame for that IMO lies soley at Rafa's door.

[Bigal]

IMO the games I seen, Aquilani is A LOT further forward than you give him credit for.

 

Could you see Mascherano or Alonso in the box for that header?

[Hassony]

It worked well last season with the same players, without Alonso Obviously.

 

The way we have handled it has been awful, and the blame for that IMO lies soley at Rafa's door.

 

 

so you're not pro Rafa any more?

[Mr. Biscan]

so you're not pro Rafa any more?

 

 

Pro Liverpool lid

[Molby]

Ant is entirely correct even though last night you couldn't exactly say we had 2 holding CMs

 

 

an antitode to having 2 defensice CMs btw, could have been this:

 

 

 

Torres, Kuyt

 

 

Benny, Lucas, Masch, Gerrard

 

Aurelio, Agger, Carra, Johnson

 

Pepe

 

and variations thereof when we have injuries - but not 1 up front unless Torres with a fit Gerrard behind him

 

but no - sadly the question had to fit the answer ( i.e it is an edict that Gerrard cannot play on the right, and 'nobody plays 4-4-2 anymore')

 

and that has been our downfall

 

the question never fits the answer, it's supposed to be the other way around

[Bailo]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you Molby, you seem not to be advocating dropping the two DMs (you have Lucas and Masch in your team there), but moving to a 442?

[Swipe]

Totally agree about playing 1 up without Torres and Gerrard tucked in behind. If Nando is unfit we should rejig it.

 

Nobody else is remotely capable of playing up on there own for us this season.

[Mr. Biscan]

IMO the games I seen, Aquilani is A LOT further forward than you give him credit for.

 

Could you see Mascherano or Alonso in the box for that header?

 

 

Now you mention it I think you have a point. Aqui does tend to go forward more, he does tend to release the ball and to his credit he always tries to get himself in a good position.

 

However when defending, he isn't giving me much confidence. I have noticed more IMO that our strikers are playing much more deeper, as I said even with Torres it isn't working enough. I lost count the amount of times Ngog came into the centre circle, got the ball, tried to find a pass and the attack broke down. Strikers shouldn't be doing that.

 

Personally, I think if we are going to get the most out of this system we need someone big, strong and tall to hold the ball up and play it through to Torres, whilst having someone both dynamic with a cool head.

 

Honestly, I can only think back to the Crouch and Torres debate. Maybe that could have worked given time? Infact think more recent regarding Keane, we perhaps got the system right, but not the player. Either way despite it's success, it isn't working at the moment for us, as well as Zonal Marking. We need a new approach, we need to try something different.

[Chili Palmer]

As Hass rightly said earlier, no matter what the system is, if you have no pace, imagination, drive, heart you will not win games.

 

We are a joke atm.

[Bailo]

As Hass rightly said earlier, no matter what the system is, if you have no pace, imagination, drive, heart you will not win games.

 

We are a joke atm.

Gibbo is going to be furious.

[Mr. Biscan]

As Hass rightly said earlier, no matter what the system is, if you have no pace, imagination, drive, heart you will not win games.

 

We are a joke atm.

 

 

Thats all well and good, but we haven't tried anything different.

 

Although I agree with the sentiments.

[johngibo YPC]

Gibbo is going to be furious.

 

I'm fine. Me being right is the main thing

[Molby]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you Molby, you seem not to be advocating dropping the two DMs (you have Lucas and Masch in your team there), but moving to a 442?

 

 

Ive been saying all season that we needed that 4-4-2 if we had Lucas and Masch in there

 

fwiw, we may as well start getting used to Masch not being here and play Lucas and Aquilani, who looks like he needs 15 ninety minute games to get up to speed, but clearly is talented

 

of course that would denigrate Masch's transfer value so on the forlorn assumption that we will actually see the transfer proceeds we may as well do the deal with Barca now and then stick him in the reserves for the rest of the season

 

or he can f*** off now if he wants, don't really care tbh

[Bailo]

I hardly think we're in the situation where we can f*** off our best midfielder.

[Bigal]

Now you mention it I think you have a point. Aqui does tend to go forward more, he does tend to release the ball and to his credit he always tries to get himself in a good position.

 

However when defending, he isn't giving me much confidence. I have noticed more IMO that our strikers are playing much more deeper, as I said even with Torres it isn't working enough. I lost count the amount of times Ngog came into the centre circle, got the ball, tried to find a pass and the attack broke down. Strikers shouldn't be doing that.

 

Personally, I think if we are going to get the most out of this system we need someone big, strong and tall to hold the ball up and play it through to Torres, whilst having someone both dynamic with a cool head.

 

Honestly, I can only think back to the Crouch and Torres debate. Maybe that could have worked given time? Infact think more recent regarding Keane, we perhaps got the system right, but not the player. Either way despite it's success, it isn't working at the moment for us, as well as Zonal Marking. We need a new approach, we need to try something different.

 

Carlton Cole or Kevin Davies.

 

I dont think AA likes a tackle, when that lad skipped by him in ET i thought, "Aaaaah s****"

 

I dont know what the problem is, so its hard to see the solution.

[johngibo YPC]

I lost count the amount of times Ngog came into the centre circle, got the ball, tried to find a pass and the attack broke down. Strikers shouldn't be doing that.

 

 

That was because Ngog was laying the Gerrard role, and Babel was on his own up front. Which was dead wierd. And where on earth was Kuyt playing extra time? He was stood next to Lucas most of it

[Molby]

I hardly think we're in the situation where we can f*** off our best midfielder.

 

 

that's not an unreasonable point of view

 

my apologies - whilst being lucid about the origins of our current plight, I could literally throw a dice for picking a solution