Never - ending debate

[Toni]

LINK

[honourablegeorge]

Presumably they say that Wenger's spent less than Rafa, while neglecting to mention that he keeps finishing behind Rafa, and has won nothing?

 

 

It's an utter hatchet job - blaming Benitez for Cisse, for one.

Edited November 9, 2009 by honourablegeorge

[Toni]

Actually it s a detailed article by times coloumnist Matthew Fearon.

 

Since the Times is a leading gazette in the UK, Mr Fearon needed be more precise with his assertions

[stressederic]

I should have stopped reading when they asserted that Rafa spent £14m on Cisse.

[kop205]

It is just utter, utter s****.

 

You don't even need to get past the 'Ins' and 'Outs' of the first season.

 

Apparently Cisse was a Benitez buy and so he should be blamed for his failure. And apparently we never sold Heskey either as he isn't included in the 'Outs'. Straight away that is a difference of £20m. Oh, and wew paid £2m for Nunez instead of getting £8m plus him for Owen.

 

Utter, utter lies and b******s.

 

It is just compltely flawed logic. How the f*** can you compare the massive restructuring that Benitez needed to do when he took over and judge it in terms of money spent against what Ferguson has done over the time from a position of absolute dominance where he needed to buy fewer players because he already had an expensively assembled sqaud and so could spend big fees on those who did need to bring in instead of having to make a little go a long way?

 

It is just f***ing s**** and I'm sick of it.

 

The real test is the price of the side that actually gets put out on the field and this is where you can see that their spending way outstrips ours and has done over many, many years.

Edited November 9, 2009 by kop205

[honourablegeorge]

Drogba at 24M was a better buy than Morientes at 6M, apparently.

[stressederic]

Drogba at 24M was a better buy than Morientes at 6M, apparently.

 

That's where Rafa went wrong. He should have spent £24m on Drogba instead. It's easy this game.

[Tobes Rafa]

Drogba at 24M was a better buy than Morientes at 6M, apparently.

Well you can't really argue with that one to be fair.

[Sion]

Maybe we should sell Torres for £80m so we'll come out on top in articles like this.

[kop205]

Well you can't really argue with that one to be fair.

 

Hmmm, I think maybe his point was: 'If you have the squad strength, built up through several years of sustained spending, to be able to spend a large sum of money on only one player rather than having to spread more limited funds across a number of players, then the chances are that you are going to get a better player'.

 

Or, more simply - you get what you (are able to )pay for.

[Conrad]

Drogba at 24M was a better buy than Morientes at 6M, apparently.

 

Drogba at 24m was a steal

[honourablegeorge]

Drogba at 24m was a steal

 

Aye - but why compare him to Morientes?

 

Torres was a better buy than Bobby Zamora. Should Roy Hodgson be criticised for that?

[Conrad]

Aye - but why compare him to Morientes?

 

Torres was a better buy than Bobby Zamora. Should Roy Hodgson be criticised for that?

 

Agreed, it's a pointless comparison

[surf]

rafa's net spend is about 80m in 6 years, not 120m

 

but i'm not surprised cause the times=murdoch=the sun=notw=sky

[ali]

: Players signed by Rafael Benitez

by BHB on RAWK

 

Players signed by Rafael Benitez

posted Monday 2nd November 2009

 

In order to try and dispell a few media fuelled myths that sections of our fanbase seem to have swollowed; here's the full list of players he's signed since he's been at the club (please read the summary below):

 

2004/05

 

£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later

£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.

£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave

£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m

Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.

£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.

£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

 

Total bought: £27.5m

 

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.

£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side

£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.

Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

 

Total sold: £11m

 

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

 

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

 

2005/06

 

£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.

Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.

£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.

£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.

£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.

Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.

£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.

£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is

£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.

Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.

Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m

£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.

£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper

Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

 

Total bought: £26.73

 

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.

£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.

Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.

£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.

£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.

£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.

Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson

Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

 

Total sold: £14m

 

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m

2006/07

 

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.

£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m

Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.

£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.

£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.

£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.

£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.

Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.

Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.

£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.

Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

 

Total bought: £27.15m

 

£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster

Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.

£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.

Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career

£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.

£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him

£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.

£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.

£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.

£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.

Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

 

Total sold: £10.15m

 

2006/07 net spend: £17m

 

2007/08

 

 

£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.

Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.

£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.

£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.

£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century

Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.

£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.

£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.

Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.

£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.

£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.

£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

 

Total bought: £70.7m

 

£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.

£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold

Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract

Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract

Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract

£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.

£6m – Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.

£7.5m – Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal

£3.5m – Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didn’t work out.

£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.

£3.5m – Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.

£8.2m – Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

 

Total sold: £36.7m

 

2007/08 net spend: £34m

 

2008/09

 

Free – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.

£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.

£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.

£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.

£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.

£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

 

Total bought: £39m

 

£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.

Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?

Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.

£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.

£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.

£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.

Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m

£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.

Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.

 

Total sold: £36.5m

 

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m

 

 

2009/10

 

£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.

£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.

£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.

£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

 

Total bought: £36.76m

 

£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.

Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.

Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.

£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.

£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.

£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

 

Total sold: £36.75m

 

2009/10 net spend: £10,000

 

 

Total Players Bought: £228,976,000

Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

 

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000

 

 

So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.

 

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.

 

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

 

2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts

2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts

2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts

2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts

2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts

 

Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.

 

We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can’t afford to pay players £70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.

 

Rafa Benitez’ record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn’t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.

 

Where has this myth come from that he’s wasted money on s**** players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn’t many.

 

The ones that haven’t worked out he’s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.

 

The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that £83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He’d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!

 

He’s worked absolute wonders with the money he’s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he’s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That £83m he’s spent he’s earned the right to spend.

 

And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren’t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn’t take into account their massive wage bill.

 

When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.

 

Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.

 

Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you’ve been listening to Martin Tyler's Monkey and the hairy-handed halfwit for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.

 

Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.

 

We’re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We’ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.

 

I’m not even going to mention the environment he’s working in under them two clowns.

 

You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

Maybe we should sell Torres for £80m so we'll come out on top in articles like this.

pretty much what I was going to say - sell Ronaldo (using the Mancs as an example) for 80m & thet gets you off the hook for 4 20m flops

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

The Mirror counters - Rafa victim of witch-hunt

 

Well, Avram Grant's corpse had been licked clean, so we needed a new heretic. By Christmas Phil Scolari was sitting on the ducking school. Come the summer, when Arsene Wenger sold two stars to Manchester City, he was dragged into the stocks. And now Rafa Benitez lays on the rack, flames licking around his tootsies.

 

That's a recent history of managerial witch-hunts at the top of the Premier League, and few would shed a tear for the highly-paid men involved.

 

But spot the link. They're all foreign. A co-incidence? Maybe. But did you hear the one about the Englishman, the Irishman and the Welshman?

 

Let me fill you in. Harry Redknapp, Martin O'Neill and Mark Hughes spent the summer flashing the cash at big clubs and went into the season as the men most likely to break into the top four.

 

Things started well and plaudits and flattery flowed. But then mediocrity set in as they fell behind Stoke, Burnley and Bolton in the form table.

 

Taken over the last six Premier League games the top four are the same top four these three men were supposed to be breaking up (Arsenal, Manchester United, Chelsea and Liverpool). Hughes's Manchester City are 11th with seven points, Redknapp's Spurs are 13th with seven points and O'Neill's Aston Villa lie a lamentable 16th on six points. Yet the calls for burning stakes and ducking stools are not audible. Not a peep of criticism is in the air.

 

In the past three transfer windows Hughes has spent almost £200 million. Harry Redknapp's bench is littered with £10 million-plus signings. And Martin O'Neill is now into his fourth season at a very well-funded Aston Villa, but has made as much impression on English football as a wet bottom-belch in a tornado.

 

Yet the Englishman, the Irishman and the Welshman, escape any censure for a dismal slump in form. Were they foreigners, you can guarantee that by now, the usual suspects would be asking questions about their suitability to hack it in the cut-and-thrust of English football.

 

I'm not saying all three deserve to be pilloried. Hughes earns a wide berth because he's been ordered to assimilate too many big talents too quickly and Redknapp because he's only a year into his job.

 

But O'Neill? Aston Villa's league form throughout this year has been pitiful, yet he remains the Harry Houdini of criticism.

 

He's had as many seasons at Villa as Claudio Ranieri had at Chelsea. A foreigner ridiculed as a flawed, under-performing Tinkerman. But Ranieri's record of wining 53% of his games, finishing Premier League runners-up, reaching an FA Cup Final and Champions League semi-final, trounces O'Neill's record of winning only 40% of his games and achieving nothing.

 

The point is, we are far more critical of foreign managers than our own. We dislike them for taking our own men's jobs, are suspicious of their pedigree and methods, give far more scrutiny to any foreign players they sign, and far less credit for their achievements. In short we want them to fail.

 

And when the pressure is on, unlike the 'Arrys and Martins they don't have the loyalty of ex-pros to fall back on, or the protection of pundits they've shared TV couches with.

 

The motto is, if you want a manager who escapes a depressing and destabilising witch-hunt, get yourself a Brit or an Irishman.

 

The rider being, that unless his name is Alex Ferguson, chances are, he'll win you sod all.