Rotation

[RedNik]

Rafa looks to have abandoned his past customary rotation policy. Its clear that having a settled squad is paying off, not just with our points total (which was comparable to last years) but with the nature of the football we're playing.

 

In the past seasons however, its been right after the busy Christmas and New Years spell that we start to push on and put together a serious string of results. I've always thought, and Rafa has suggested this was the reason he adhered to rotation, that our fitness levels have been better in the second half of the season, allowing us to outperform other teams. IMO this is one of the main reasons we've been able to perform so well in the Champions League too.

 

Is there a possible downside to the lack of rotation we're seeing in games?

[abc]

Downside: the slide which happened to Arsenal last season?

 

I think personally we should rotate in the CL. Keep the team as it is for the league (at least the core of 8/9 players), but chop and change for the CL.

[Guest spk]

i dont think its an issue atm. torres, gerrard and mach have had quite a lot of rest so far this season really - theyve not started or even played every game.

[floyd the barber]

think rafa made his first mistake of the season today...we got away with it..

 

changing a winning formation..moving gerrard from central mid up behind torres (when gerrard has been excellent as a c-mid) and breaking up the improving torres- keane partnership...Was an error..

 

We need to stick to what has been working so well.....

[fyds]

Year on year we have built a fitter, stronger, more capable better squad under Rafa - as you do this, the need for frequent rotation slowly subsides. Despite the CL game in the middle of the week, we looked fitter and sharper than City as the game wore on.

[Maldini]

Rafa looks to have abandoned his past customary rotation policy. Its clear that having a settled squad is paying off, not just with our points total (which was comparable to last years) but with the nature of the football we're playing.

 

In the past seasons however, its been right after the busy Christmas and New Years spell that we start to push on and put together a serious string of results. I've always thought, and Rafa has suggested this was the reason he adhered to rotation, that our fitness levels have been better in the second half of the season, allowing us to outperform other teams. IMO this is one of the main reasons we've been able to perform so well in the Champions League too.

 

Is there a possible downside to the lack of rotation we're seeing in games?

 

We've rotated 2 or 3 players between every league game apart from the derby this season, and we probably only did that because the first team had the midweek off with the Carling Cup.

 

think rafa made his first mistake of the season today...we got away with it..

 

changing a winning formation..moving gerrard from central mid up behind torres (when gerrard has been excellent as a c-mid) and breaking up the improving torres- keane partnership...Was an error..

 

We need to stick to what has been working so well.....

 

Hindsight is 20/20. I can understand what Rafa was thinking, City play a pretty weird formation with Elano, Ireland and Robinho all operating "between the lines" I think our formation was an attempt not to get overrun in midfield, and probably also to get the positionally naive Richards to drift out from the back with Gerrard.

 

Obviously it didn't work in the end, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do though.

[RedNik]

We've rotated 2 or 3 players between every league game apart from the derby this season, and we probably only did that because the first team had the midweek off with the Carling Cup.

Hindsight is 20/20. I can understand what Rafa was thinking, City play a pretty weird formation with Elano, Ireland and Robinho all operating "between the lines" I think our formation was an attempt not to get overrun in midfield, and probably also to get the positionally naive Richards to drift out from the back with Gerrard.

 

Obviously it didn't work in the end, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do though.

 

 

Don't think there's been much rotation. The squads have been a little different, because we didn't have Riera yet, injuries. Beyond this, its pretty clear Rafa has a preferred 11 that he wants to play. For me the fact that Babel hasn't got starts is surprising, but also Agger.

 

I'm not saying its a good or bad thing, the results speak for themselves.

[John am Rhein]

I think we'll see plenty of rotation in the next few months - and despite the moaning it'll generate, it'll be worth it.

 

However, with our position in the European Cup group being so strong, we may well be able to rest the better players in a couple of European games rather than League games so that could certainly help us in the League.

[Rimbeux]

Do the facts back this up, or is this just more hunch followed by repetition to the point where it becomes unchallenged fact?

 

 

It all comes down to results, and I'm of the mind that if a couple of these games had gone a goal the other way, the R word would have been trotted out as much as ever (facts may well show it to actually be the case), because we're not actually playing that well or anywhere near our top level, for me it's about a shift in mentality that is helping us out of tight corners.

 

It's mostly perception imo, Sir Alex changes and freshens, Benitez tinkers and rotates, even though the former will actually say he's rotating for all the reasons the latter gets criticised for. Results

[alias75]

think rafa made his first mistake of the season today...we got away with it..

 

changing a winning formation..moving gerrard from central mid up behind torres (when gerrard has been excellent as a c-mid) and breaking up the improving torres- keane partnership...Was an error..

 

We need to stick to what has been working so well.....

 

Think when Mascherano is fit he has to play especially away from home, hes almost always in the top 3 players every time he plays and i do think hes an important player to set the tempo when we press and we need his energy in midfield.

 

Its a tough one because at the moment that probably means Keane misses out and you do want to try and keep playing him now hes starting to show some confidence, of course playing Gerrard on the right would solve that problem!

[Mike]

Think when Mascherano is fit he has to play especially away from home,

 

yesterday proved that we don't

[Cooger]

Year on year we have built a fitter, stronger, more capable better squad under Rafa - as you do this, the need for frequent rotation slowly subsides. Despite the CL game in the middle of the week, we looked fitter and sharper than City as the game wore on.

 

I think City also having a mid week game and one day less to recover, might have made a difference as well.

[Gray - YPC]

Before that match I thought that we had the perfect team and formation out there.

 

With how City line up with so many runners from deep and Elano, Robinho and Wright Phillips behind the front man I thought bringing back Mascherano was essential.

 

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rafa got it wrong today, yet I cannot recall anyone highlighting this before the match!! If they did, then fair play, but it's an easy game to judge after the event...

[charlie clown]

Before that match I thought that we had the perfect team and formation out there.

 

With how City line up with so many runners from deep and Elano, Robinho and Wright Phillips behind the front man I thought bringing back Mascherano was essential.

 

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rafa got it wrong today, yet I cannot recall anyone highlighting this before the match!! If they did, then fair play, but it's an easy game to judge after the event...

 

You're right there - from Wednesday night onwards, every bit of news I have seen or heard on this has said 'Rafa is resting Masch for Sunday and quite right too'. It's easy making the management decisions after the matches have finished.

[John am Rhein]

It's mostly perception imo, Sir Alex changes and freshens, Benitez tinkers and rotates, even though the former will actually say he's rotating for all the reasons the latter gets criticised for. Results

 

Just ignore the criticism - it's already been discredited as uninformed crap

[Eskimo]

think rafa made his first mistake of the season today...we got away with it..

 

changing a winning formation..moving gerrard from central mid up behind torres (when gerrard has been excellent as a c-mid) and breaking up the improving torres- keane partnership...Was an error..

 

We need to stick to what has been working so well.....

 

The formation you are criticizing was the same formation that actually worked very well last season. Its the same formation many on here didn't want to see changed for this season and one of the reasons people questioned the signing of Keane. Damned if you damned if you don't....

[Cobs]

Year on year we have built a fitter, stronger, more capable better squad under Rafa - as you do this, the need for frequent rotation slowly subsides.

first time we've heard that one - have you not been saying (along with plenty of others) that we rotate just as much as all the other top teams? (which we haven't btw)

 

 

Despite the CL game in the middle of the week, we looked fitter and sharper than City as the game wore on.

 

ermm, maybe their game in Europe on Thursday had an impact?

 

Do the facts back this up, or is this just more hunch followed by repetition to the point where it becomes unchallenged fact?

It all comes down to results, and I'm of the mind that if a couple of these games had gone a goal the other way, the R word would have been trotted out as much as ever (facts may well show it to actually be the case), because we're not actually playing that well or anywhere near our top level, for me it's about a shift in mentality that is helping us out of tight corners.

 

It's mostly perception imo, Sir Alex changes and freshens, Benitez tinkers and rotates, even though the former will actually say he's rotating for all the reasons the latter gets criticised for. Results

 

 

We are clearly rotating the starting 11 less than last season -

 

after 12 games last season Rafa had made 65 changes, at the same stage this season he's made 44 changes (50% of which are down to the Crewe game in the CC)

 

2007-08 = 6,6,4,7,6,5,6,2,9,8,6

2008-09 = 2,2,1,3,4,5,3,11,11,1,1

 

whether this is a change of tactic from Rafa and continues remains to be seen but i'm liking it so far

[johngibo YPC]

Before that match I thought that we had the perfect team and formation out there.

 

With how City line up with so many runners from deep and Elano, Robinho and Wright Phillips behind the front man I thought bringing back Mascherano was essential.

 

I've seen a lot of comments about how Rafa got it wrong today, yet I cannot recall anyone highlighting this before the match!! If they did, then fair play, but it's an easy game to judge after the event...

 

Yeah looked a good team to me

[fyds]

1) first time we've heard that one - have you not been saying (along with plenty of others) that we rotate just as much as all the other top teams? (which we haven't btw)

2)ermm, maybe their game in Europe on Thursday had an impact?

1) More a case of we rotated no more than the other teams, but as you ahve observed yourself - we now rotate less than we did...I believe this is because we have better players that can cope and (so far) fewer injuries than usual.

2) Correct - I forgot about that.

[Cobs]

1) More a case of we rotated no more than the other teams, but as you ahve observed yourself - we now rotate less than we did...I believe this is because we have better players that can cope and (so far) fewer injuries than usual.

 

well we (jimmylibel mainly) did the math on this at the end of last season and that's not true - we rotated more than Man U, Chelsea & Arsenal

 

as for these better players now able to cope, the vast majority are the same players as last season,

 

it appears, at the moment, to be a tactical shift from Rafa, interesting to see if (or how long) it continues

Edited October 6, 2008 by Cobs

[Mike]

well we (jimmylibel mainly) did the math on this at the end of last season and that's not true - we rotated more than Man U, Chelsea & Arsenal

 

as for these better players now able to cope, the vast majority are the same players as last season,

 

it appears, at the moment, to be a tactical shift from Rafa, interesting to see if (or how long) it continues

 

you're right. theres an interview with rafa saying he got it wrong with rotation.

[floyd the barber]

The formation you are criticizing was the same formation that actually worked very well last season. Its the same formation many on here didn't want to see changed for this season and one of the reasons people questioned the signing of Keane. Damned if you damned if you don't....

 

and i agree, it did work so well last season...but for this, we changed it.....our biggest mistakes in the premiership is changing our formations to fit who we are playing, it works well in europe where the game is slower and more tactical, but in england we need to stay consistent and play to OUR strengths and not change our game because of who we are playing.... i believe this has been Rafas biggest error in england...he finally found a winning formation last season...we stuck to it and we went on a fantastic run.

 

This season and we have gone back to a 4-4-2.....even though the league table shows we are 2nd...we havent been that good, yet have got important results and over recent weeks have started to get to grips with the new set-up, players are settling in....torres and keane are looking like a partnership and Gerrard has been playing well as a center mid..

To change this yesterday with us being more worried about city, than just concentrating on ourselves was a mistake...

 

We need to stay consistent and play OUR way.

[surf]

Squads should only be rotated out of necessity, either cause players are injured or because they're performing really badly. Players should be rewarded for good performances cause they know where they're at: do well and you stay in the team. That pushes players to perform and pushes the reserves to train harder and grab their chance when they play.

 

Having a consistent XI also breeds familiarity on the pitch and that will lead to better performances. The downside is that tiredness could set in, but i believe the rush that comes from winning games and the confidence that comes from that will offset that to some extent. If we're top of the table in March i think we'll find that extra energy to keep going.

[David Hodgson]

Year on year we have built a fitter, stronger, more capable better squad under Rafa - as you do this, the need for frequent rotation slowly subsides. Despite the CL game in the middle of the week, we looked fitter and sharper than City as the game wore on.

 

So, Alex Ferguson's rotating, which is more frequent than Rafa's ( according to forum lore) is actually a flawed policy, or is his squad still a work in progress?

 

IMO the reverse is true - if you don't have an abundance of riches you should me rotating less.

[Guest Ant]

Squads should only be rotated out of necessity, either cause players are injured or because they're performing really badly. Players should be rewarded for good performances cause they know where they're at: do well and you stay in the team. That pushes players to perform and pushes the reserves to train harder and grab their chance when they play.

 

Having a consistent XI also breeds familiarity on the pitch and that will lead to better performances. The downside is that tiredness could set in, but i believe the rush that comes from winning games and the confidence that comes from that will offset that to some extent. If we're top of the table in March i think we'll find that extra energy to keep going.

 

 

I totally agree.