shaq

As I pointed out in the transfer thread, his highest goals/game ratio ever was last season, and a blind man could see that he suffered this season only due to the tactics that RFH played. We've already seen him get three goals in four games since RFH has f***ed off. What else do we want, the moon on a stick?

Normally agree with what you say, but don't agree here. Torres out will not leave us in better shape. Anelka, Young and Suarez coming in with Torres staying leaves us in better shape. If we are still going for a zero net spend, then the new owners wouldn't be much better than the last ones... The Torres of the last season and a half - scored 18 goals in 22 games in 09/10, making it his most prolific (in terms of goals/game) season for us. This season he has 9 in 22, but that is purely down to the f***wit of a manager we had - since Kenny has been in, ensuring that Torres got the support he needed, he's had 3 goals in 4 games. In my opinion, selling Torres would be a disaster, because we won't be able to replace him adequately. Torres leaves, you can be sure Reina will be gone (to Man U? Arsenal? Somebody who has ambition to win, anyway). On the other hand, we keep Torres, we fill our weak spots with quality and we can have a real shot at winning the league. Reina, Torres, Gerrard are not only players who deserve to win the league, they are players who we need to win the league.

At his age Fabregas was starting regularly for Arsenal, in the league, and in Europe. If he's good enough, he's old enough.

That turn by Emilsson on the right touchline to take him past the left back was a thing of beauty. Worth watching the match just for that.

Absolutely massive assumption to suggest that rafa would have been sacked already this season, with absolutely no basis in fact, but we've come to expect that from you now.

More of a future in becoming Rafa FC than in becoming Gerrard and Carra FC. I love Gerrard as a player, but he f***ed up royally if he was involved in getting rid of Rafa.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9310806.stm I thought we had lots of good young keepers (Bouzanis, Martin), why do we need another?

sigh, another ex-hero showing how thick he is...

CB: Wladyslaw Zmuda RM: Zizinho

Fully agree with this. In the short term, I want us to lose every game, so that the owners do what is right for the club long term.

The issue is that DH makes assumptions that we are meant to somehow accept, and then constructs an argument on top of those. The arguments that follow may be valid, which lends the whole thing a credence that it actually doesn't have when you examine the base assumptions. One such assumption is that we had a bad season last season, and Rafa was at fault, so he has to go. However, when looking at Rafa's overall record, it is quite clear that Rafa is one the best managers in the world, and so he should have had an opportunity to recover from the bad season. We all know that he was severely hampered in the transfer market (again, something that DH chooses to airbrush over), was dealing with a difficult boardroom situation. Of course, when assumptions are made in favour of Benitez, then we get a response like: "I also think assuming Meirles gets bought is a big assumption." This is considered a big assumption despite the fact that Hodgson openly admitted to not knowing where to play him - making it extremely unlikely that he was a Hodgson signing, and by extension, making it extremely likely that he was a Benitez signing. I don't know whether he would have won the league this season, though my gut feeling is that we would certainly be thereabouts at this stage. To suggest that we would be on the same number of points under Rafa this season as we are currently under the far, far inferior Hodgson is one of the most ludicrous things that I have heard in ages.

You tell me to keep the playground digs out, shortly after offering me a banana? Was that a dig, or did you just want to give me some nourishment? Anyway, let's drop that, as it only detracts from the main discussion. Firstly, let me state my position, so that you are clear as to where I'm coming from. I thought that getting rid of Rafa was a big mistake, and that it would seriously set us back. I felt that the single-mindedness of the man, to get Liverpool back to the top of the pile, was something that he shared with our great managers, and that was important. More pragmatically, I felt that if he was properly backed in the transfer market, then he would succeed. His transfer history shows that where he has been allowed to spend big money, those transfers have succeeded (Alonso, Mascherano, Torres). Where he has not done so well is with the cheaper and 'riskier' end of the market. Let me also state that I thought bringing in Hodgson was a mistake, but I take no pleasure in being proven right so far. But, the subsequent cockup of Hodgson has no bearing on the question of whether Rafa should have gone - although one event follows the other, it is easy enough to investigate each on merit. We should have kept Rafa because he is one of the best coaches in the business. His record stands up to any scrutiny, and he has over-achieved at both Valencia and Liverpool when comparing their resources to their rivals. I will be the first to admit that last season was a bad one. But his achievements up to that point meant that he deserved some slack, particularly as we know that he was hamstrung by the owners. If winning the Champions league doesn't give him leeway to have one bad season, then we are no better than the Geordies. There was no decline in the league in the seasons prior to that, so it's not as if last season was a culmination of a general decline over several seasons. I'm also certain that given that the league is a lot more forgiving this season, if Rafa had remained in charge, we would still be fighting for the premiership. Together with the new owners, Rafa could really have created something amazing over the next few seasons, but that's what we passed up in the expectation that the next guy was going to be even better. Rafa *got* us, Montse *got* us, and they would fight OUR corner, because they know what LFC means to us. Mourinho may arguably be a better coach, or at least has a record that allows the comparison, but I would still rather than have Rafa, because he would walk into a bar full of Reds to celebrate a victory with us. To my mind, that counts for something. That, and the fact that he made us Champions of Europe. Hodgson is the antithesis of Rafa. I don't want to wait to see if he has turned a corner, I want him to get out of our club, and I want him to take his sorry trash with him, immediately.

Such cutting wit! If your arguments were as well constructed as your insults, you may have had something worthwhile to say. "The sad reality is that horribly as Roy Hodgson's reign has been, it's comparable with Rafa's" "It was just a post comparing this season with last." Do you know what the word "reign" means? Either you do, and your contradicting yourself, or you don't, which doesn't paint you in the best light either. The reality is this - you decided that getting rid of Rafa was the right thing to do, and that replacing him Hodgson was a good thing. When the second part of that turned out to be bunkum, and you had to climb down from that position, you focused and clung on to the first part of your argument. Now I could tear that position apart for you too, but it's too much effort to show a fool the error of his ways.

Having followed your posts for a while, it seems to me that you are prepared to go to the most incredible lengths to not admit when you are wrong. Hodgson's reign is comparable to Rafa's? Are you on crack? Rafa at his worst was never as bad as Hodgson has been. There is not one single measure that can be applied in which Hodgson comes out on top, be it results, be it representing LFC in the media, be it transfers, be it treatment of players or be it fans opinion of him. It's an insult to Rafa and what he has done for us to even compare him to RFH. When Reina and Torres leave because they are sick of working for a buffoon, then maybe you will realise how bad Hodgson is for the club. You won't admit it publicly, because that would involve holding your hands up and saying 'sorry, I was wrong'.

I don't have a good feeling about this. Don't get me wrong, I will be over the moon if H&G are gone. But what if the new owners are just as bad? Our club is on it's knees, and I fear that if we don't get the right owners now, we could be suffering for the next 5-10 years. I don't have any problem with the owners being American. That has no bearing on this. But are they rich enough? If we want to compete, we absolutely have to have a new stadium, which is paid for by fresh investment. We have to have a lot of money for new players, because not players will be able to turn down the fortunes the likes of Sheikh Mansour will be thrusting at them. What about the manager? I want to see Hodgson packing his bags, and if new owners don't do that, then they are seriously underestimating the severity of our situation. Makes me wonder what other mistakes will be made down the line. It is fairly common knowledge that the MB and CP will be getting a hefty bonus for having found owners - so how objective would they have been in ensuring that these are the right owners? Have safeguards been put in place to ensure there is no LBO down the line? There have been rumblings of a shared stadium, just because they have an iconic stadium in Fenway park, doesn't mean that they may not go down a shared stadium route with us. I think there are still a lot of questions to be answered, and until we know what their true intentions are, I don't think we should be getting the bunting out just yet.

Unfortunately I came along after the idiot called ChaoticPrimate was sent packing, otherwise, I would certainly raise this defense of RFH I've been hearing a lot of recently - that it's not his fault he has inherited Benitez's rubbish players. Those rubbish players includes: Pepe Reina - the best goalie in the premiership, no question. Glen Johnson - First choice England right back Steven Gerrard - no comment needed Fernando Torres - likewise Dirk Kuyt - started all seven games in the World Cup for the finalists, scoring 1 goal and providing three assists. Add to those other full internationals like Agger, Skrtel, Cole, Maxi and then compare our team to any team outside of the top four, and it's unquestionably better. With those players, for us to be playing as we are now, is solely down to RFH. And although we had some awful performances last season, we never had sustained mediocrity like we have had since Rafa left. In the main, were Rafa lost it was in not having adequate backup to key positions, which was then exposed with some bad injuries. Torres scored 18 goals in 22 appearances last season, which is pretty f***ing awesome. If he had been fit the whole season, we would have made fourth comfortably. But that didn't happen and we got rid off/let go a manger who given the proper backing would have been mentioned in the same breath as Bob, Bill and Kenny. I'd f***ing crawl over broken glass to bring him back.

A lot of sense being talked on here tonight... Just when I think I'm forgetting the pain of losing one of the top managers in Europe, this f***ing clown finds a new depth to plumb, and I go all again...

You don't need to write FACT/OPINION at the end of each line, I think we've established that I know the difference rather better than yourself. Please explain how we were in a downward spiral with Rafa. Under Rafa we finished: 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 7th. 2nd to 7th = downward spiral to me, also early exits from cup competitions with the exception of the Europa League. So you don't give Rafa the slack of one bad season? Considering your own view on the support a liverpool manager should get, that's a bit hypocritical, wouldn't you say? Judging by your own criteria, any team that finished in a position lower than their previous season, is on a downward spiral? Really? Have you thought this through? I wonder whether there are Man United fans on RedCafe demanding the sacking of Alex Ferguson because of this downward spiral he's got them on... Other than that last season, if anything, that's a gentle upward progression. With regards to the last season, you know as well as I do that Rafa was hampered in the transfer market, and that it is a fact that he had less available to spend than not only the top four, but also less than Villa, Spurs and Man City. Along with that, he had to deal two f***wits bent on destroying the club. yet he paid £17m for Johnson & £17m for Aquilani, £2m for Soto, and £1.7m rising to £3m for JonJo *Source lfchistory And yet he still had a net spend less than all the clubs he was competing with bar Arsenal. So yes, he was hampered in the transfer market compared to the teams he was competing against. Consider that he had won us the Champions League, got us to another Champions League final. He did this with a budget half of Spurs, who are lauded for simply qualifying for the tournament. For his past achievements for us, he deserved some slack. You are happy to give slack to a new manager, who has not yet done anything for us, yet you couldn't give it to Rafa, who had done so much for us? how can a manager 10 games into his Liverpool career possibly do this "who has not yet done anything for us" why the fasination with Spurs ? As you well know, the point here is not an attack on the new manager, but rather a question why somebody who did so much for us wasn't given a bit of slack, yet you feel that we should be obligated this courtesy to someone who has not yet done anything for us. No fascination with Spurs, but using them to make a valid point - despite them having spent more than us over the last few seasons, we have had more success than them. So Rafa guaranteed fourth place? At least he had the guts to say that in public. Instead we now have a manager who's public pronouncements tell us how happy he is to get a draw with Birmingham City. I know which I'd rather have. so he had guts to say it, big wow, he should have concentrated on getting it and not saying it, and if you looked closely at Liverpool's league results at St Andrews under Rafa - P4 D4, also appreciate the fact that only Chelsea had a better home record than Birmingham in the league last season and they are unbeaten in nearly approx 20 games, Roy was possibly very candid with his response, just because you dont like something does not make it wrong. Last I checked, this is Liverpool. We (used to) aim high, and with that attitude, we would get there. Some quotes from the great man himself: “A lot of football success is in the mind. You must believe you are the best and then make sure that you are. In my time at Liverpool we always said we had the best two teams on Merseyside, Liverpool and Liverpool Reserves." ” "We murdered them 0-0." "He's [ian St. John] not just the best centre-forward in the British Isles, but the only one." I want fighting talk, not "oooh, Birmingham, that's a toughie!". Rafa said that we would get fourth, he wanted his players to believe that, so they went onto the pitch with some belief that they were better than the opposition. Hodgson tells the world one week that a draw at Birmingham is a good result, and we so the effect of that the following week - a team that didn't believe that they could beat Man United. Also you didn't explain how you felt able to judge Merieles after match, but not Poulsen after three. Surely you don't ignore the arguments that you don't have an answer for?

You don't need to write FACT/OPINION at the end of each line, I think we've established that I know the difference rather better than yourself. Please explain how we were in a downward spiral with Rafa. Under Rafa we finished: 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 7th. Other than that last season, if anything, that's a gentle upward progression. With regards to the last season, you know as well as I do that Rafa was hampered in the transfer market, and that it is a fact that he had less available to spend than not only the top four, but also less than Villa, Spurs and Man City. Along with that, he had to deal two f***wits bent on destroying the club. Consider that he had won us the Champions League, got us to another Champions League final. He did this with a budget half of Spurs, who are lauded for simply qualifying for the tournament. For his past achievements for us, he deserved some slack. You are happy to give slack to a new manager, who has not yet done anything for us, yet you couldn't give it to Rafa, who had done so much for us? So Rafa guaranteed fourth place? At least he had the guts to say that in public. Instead we now have a manager who's public pronouncements tell us how happy he is to get a draw with Birmingham City. I know which I'd rather have.

Pretty much. But that's not relevant to the questions at hand, such as why you feel Roy is immune from criticism, when Rafa wasn't?

Like I said, a parody. I'd give you a clapping smiley too if you had the courage to engage me in debate, but like your beloved neutered manager, you prefer to lie down when you know you will be beaten anyway.

Not getting into a debate with me would be the wisest thing thing you have done for a while, otherwise, you have had real difficulty trying to explain why you could put the boot into Rafa, and still be a proper fan, whereas we don't have the same luxury with Roy... Also you seemed to be a tad confused about the difference between fact and opinion. Let me help you - this may help you in your debates with others: - It is a fact that Merieles has made one league start - It is a fact that Poulsen has three league starts - It is a fact that you posted that without any other qualification, that Merieles is a positive signing - It is a fact that you posted that it is "early to judge" for Poulsen - From the facts above, it is my opinion that you are intentionally putting a positive spin on Roy's signing. I have come to this opinion based on the facts that I have related above. I don't think calling Roy a bumbler and an unmitigated disaster is vitriol. Vitriol would be telling Roy to F?UCK OFF. Calling him a disgrace. Calling him a turd. That's some proper vitriol. If I came out with that level of abuse at a Liverpool player or manager, then you could question whether I really supported Liverpool.

Kev, I think you are afforded a certain respect as a senior member of YNWA, but if someone else had aired the views that you have over the last few months they would have been hounded out of here long ago. In summing up Roy's transfer dealings, Merieles, with one league start and Cole, with two league starts, are judged to be positive, but for Poulsen (3 starts) and Konchesky (2 starts), it's too early to judge? are you trying to cover the fact that Roy has been s*** in the transfer market, but for some strange reason, you are happy to accept mediocrity from Roy, though you wouldn't accept what you perceive as mediocrity from Rafa? Roy is an unmitigated disaster for this club, he is not fit to lick Rafa's boots, and when new owners come in, I want to see him shipped out forthwith, along with the crap he has brought to club - Konchesky, Brad Jones, Poulsen. "Again it's the question I used to get asked - WHO WOULD YOU REPLACE HIM WITH ?" Simple. I want to bring back the man who would have brought us back to greatness, had he been backed in the transfer market. You were quick to put the boot into Rafa, forgetting that this was the man that made us champions of Europe, this was the man under whom we finished above Arsenal three seasons out of five. And now you have the temerity to ask us who we would replace Roy "bumbler" Hodgson with. Under Rafa we had defeats, but he never laid down like this: "I've got to say my expectations were not that high anyway. I would have been disappointed to lose the game but certainly not that disappointed to draw it."" This craven piece of s*** is acceptable? You (selectively) accuse the players, of having a poor attitude and want to see them shipped out, but not a single cross word against a manager who claims his expectations aren't high playing Birmingham?!?! Face it, you have become a gross parody of your former self, and are not funny any more.

Parade in Spain, hardly surprising that he would wear an Athleti shirt, as thanks to his hometown club and to piss off Real Madrid fans

Lose Benitez, all the big clubs come in after Torres, and he will go. Torres goes, and Gerrard sees that the club is going nowhere fast, and that he will not lift the premiership with Liverpool, so he moves to Europe - Barcelona/AC Milan/Real Madrid. Of course, the money from this will be used to reduce the debt further - essentially, it goes into G&Hs pockets. We will no longer be talked of as one of the big four - that will be Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man City. We will compete with Everton, Spurs and Villa for Europa League places. Depressing? Yes. Is it likely to happen? I hope not, but everytime that evil s*** opens his mouth, the likelihood increases.