The Sercret Footballer on Tackling.

[Buzz]

On recent events inluding us on tackling it was quite interesting to read this yesterday. I put it in here due to the refernces to us and after yesterdays debacle of reffereeing by Webb regarding tackles. Mods please feel free to move it to the general footie forum if you think it is best suited there or if it has already been mentioned in another thread then remove it.

 

I've never been a big one for tradition. I find that much of it has a stifling effect on the present while giving one or two an excuse to call themselves an expert in something that probably wouldn't be missed anyway. This week, however, Vincent Kompany came very close to changing my mind.

 

After his sending-off against Manchester United last weekend, the Manchester City captain took to his Facebook page to highlight that the English game as we know it is in danger of losing its core identity. "My understanding is that English football prides itself on the hardness, the fairness and the tradition of its game," Kompany said.

 

In the early part of my career the only things you'd hear a manager shout were "let him know you're there early doors", "win your tackles" and, slightly less violently, "if in doubt, kick it out". It's taken a long time but any fly on our dressing room wall today would hear, "keep the ball", "make sure of your passes" and "don't go to ground unless you have to", because with the speed of the game, going to ground means a player is temporarily out of action. Kompany did not need to go to ground but that doesn't mean he should be penalised for it.

 

One of the main glitches in the letter of the law is that it's almost impossible to determine whether it is the intent of a player to win the ball or foul the man. That places the referee (and the players) in an uncomfortable situation because one man's judgment is another man's favouritism. The immediate solutions are limited but for me the only answer is encouraging the next generation of players to abandon the tradition of tackling altogether and work harder on the real skills of the game. It's a shame so many of us, me included, enjoy going in for a tackle whether you win the ball or not.

 

Kompany also makes the point that referees are powerless to use common sense and, while I agree to a certain extent, it's also true that some referees are too quick to whip out the yellow card for a trip or a pull, safe in the knowledge that yellow cards cannot be appealed. I don't know why this is the case but if a player is punished, and a yellow card is certainly that, then surely he should have the right to appeal.

 

One of the Premier League's most successful imports, Xabi Alonso, perhaps gave the most damning testimony as to why England can't crack it at international level. "I don't think tackling is a quality," he said. "At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition."

He ends by touching on the biggest problem facing the next generation of England players. "It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture." During our games it is noticeable that every 50-50 challenge is met with a roar of approval from the crowd and even if you don't win the ball, often there is a ripple of applause. For some players it is how they're accepted and how they judge whether they've had a good or bad game.

 

On one occasion I went sliding in to Dimitar Berbatov (I honestly thought I could win the ball) and afterwards the look on his face was one of total pity for me. He seemed saddened by the fact I had to resort to this, either because I wasn't as good as him or my football education was so flawed. Actually I think it was both.

 

Kompany is certainly right about his main point: managers and players will definitely be asking for more red cards, but not because his own dismissal was harsh. There are countless examples of officials being pressured by players to produce red cards. I asked a ref for one last week, the week before that and again about two weeks before that. In fact, I remember asking for John Terry to be sent off for a foul but only succeeding in earning a yellow for him and a lot of abuse for me, mainly from the referee. I'm not sure how I feel about encouraging players to be sent off or booked but I do know that I feel a lot better when I win a match than when I lose one.

 

But players are growing increasingly irritated with reporters such as Sky's Geoff Shreeves, who are allowed to inflame tense situations in the immediate aftermath of a match by calling in to question controversial decisions in the hope of making a more entertaining post-match interview. Sky is only too happy to play back these incidents for managers and players in the tunnel seconds after the final whistle before shoving a microphone into their face to mop up the criticism. I am yet to see Sky called to the FA, which is a shame, as the two would no doubt get on famously.

 

Last week alone Roberto Mancini asked for a red card for Liverpool's Martin Skrtel but also accused Wayne Rooney of doing the same for Kompany. In an interview after the Carling Cup semi‑final, the City manager again asked why a red card was not shown to Liverpool's Glen Johnson before Steven Gerrard brilliantly interjected by pointing out the Italian's double standards.

Unlike Kompany, I don't think English football is losing its way. I do think it is about to discover a new identity. I genuinely feel that the game in this country is in the middle of the biggest transition since the Premier League's inception. I have no idea how long it will last, but football in this country will be better for it. As long as referees maintain zero tolerance towards most unsavoury things that go on in a game the players will need to become technically better, their positional play will improve and reckless tackling, as we know it, will become a last resort.

 

The latest incarnation of the English game and the realisation that the best chance of winning is from being technically superior to your opponent once again seem to have arrived on our shores 20 years too late. Traditionally at least, that has always tended to be the case.

I think the last bit about being technically superior, if you include tatics and not just players skills, is what Rafa brought with him and his style of football, 20 years late or not.

Interesting piece and I wonder if people can start gathering info to find out who it is from these little snippets of info received. A bad tackle on Berbatov, asking for Terry to be sent off but only getting a yellow and abuse from fans....

Edited January 15, 2012 by Buzz

[Epic Swindle]

Haven't we been over this with Alonso before? He's still wrong. Why is shooting and tackling frowned up for a young lad learning the game when they're a massive part of it.

 

Benitez also signed Crouch, Sissoko and Pennant in his first couple of seasons, all players more suited to a traditional English set up.

 

Think he's either an ex red or he's mates with a few. I'm going with Murphy.

[Buzz]

Haven't we been over this with Alonso before? He's still wrong. Why is shooting and tackling frowned up for a young lad learning the game when they're a massive part of it.

 

Benitez also signed Crouch, Sissoko and Pennant in his first couple of seasons, all players more suited to a traditional English set up.

Our league is different and it is a big part of it, but, I think that is point of his comments and the piece, the game has evolved and it may not be such a big part as it once was.

Yeah I think Murphy is a good shout too.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Buzz

[Rimbeux]

tackling is as he describes it, a last resort when your positioning is off, going to ground is a big risk for a number of reasons.

[goodrobotusses]

Not to dredge up the debates on Xabi's comments, but I'm with him. Tackling is a vital part of the game, but if a young lad is naming tackling among his primary skills, then he's probably not going to be a great player. Well, maybe in this country he will, but nowhere else. But then I'm pretty much ideologically opposed to yard dogs like Lee Cattermole – players whose whole game is about flying into challenges with borderline fury (which the crowds love) and will traditionally get more credit for that than someone like Lucas, who wins it standing up through good positioning, but can also move the ball quickly and intelligently.

Edited January 15, 2012 by CJMcDonald

[Epic Swindle]

Our league is different and it is a big part of it, but, I think that is point of his comments and the piece, the game has evolved and it may not be such a big part as it once was.

 

Watching Stoke yesterday I'd say it was. They didn't even come to play football. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer technically superior players but I still like the agressive nature of our league and there has to be a balance. I think you go all over the world and all fans of any culture love tough tackling, so there is a place for it.

[Dan]

tackling is as he describes it, a last resort when your positioning is off, going to ground is a big risk for a number of reasons.

 

Lucas positions himself perfectly to make the tackle.

[Swipe]

Not to dredge up the debates on Xabi's comments, but I'm with him. Tackling is a vital part of the game, but if a young lad is naming tackling among his primary skills, then he's probably not going to be a great player. Well, maybe in this country he will, but nowhere else. But then I'm pretty much ideologically opposed to yard dogs like Lee Cattermole.

 

Yeah I'd say Xabi had a point. He's not frowning upon tackling. Just dismissing the idea it's any sort of art. Barca's midfield rarely go to ground to get the ball and they're a fair tougher defensive wall to penetrate than typical English yard dogs. They're also one of the best teams ever to be fair, but you get my point.

 

And as said above - our very own Lucas is a perfect example of how good a DM can be without the need to rattle into tackles without thought.

[goodrobotusses]

Barca's midfield rarely go to ground to get the ball and they're a fair tougher defensive wall to penetrate than typical English yard dogs.

Exactly. Guardiola's one big obsession is regaining possession. They're the amazing attacking team they are because they have amazing attacking players, but Guardiola turned them into absolute b******s to play against off the ball. They win the ball back constantly through positioning, pressing and team work, not throwing themselves onto the deck for a cheap crowd cheer.

[Swipe]

Exactly. Guardiola's one big obsession is regaining possession. They're the amazing attacking team they are because they have amazing attacking players, but Guardiola turned them into absolute b******s to play against off the ball. They win the ball back constantly through positioning, pressing and team work, not throwing themselves onto the deck for a cheap crowd cheer.

 

Heard a commentator say recently PG had a tactic in training where when one team loses the ball they have six seconds to get it back!

[épieur]

Yeah I'd say Xabi had a point. He's not frowning upon tackling. Just dismissing the idea it's any sort of art. Barca's midfield rarely go to ground to get the ball and they're a fair tougher defensive wall to penetrate than typical English yard dogs. They're also one of the best teams ever to be fair, but you get my point.

 

And as said above - our very own Lucas is a perfect example of how good a DM can be without the need to rattle into tackles without thought.

 

If you think of tackling as going to the ground perhaps, but I don't think that's the definition of a tackle.

 

Lucas was the top tackler in Europe for a second year running before he got injured. It's a great quality, one of his best, and if Xabi disagrees I think Xabi is wrong.

[Swipe]

If you think of tackling as going to the ground perhaps, but I don't think that's the definition of a tackle.

 

Lucas was the top tackler in Europe for a second year running before he got injured. It's a great quality, one of his best, and if Xabi disagrees I think Xabi is wrong.

 

No I agree with that. I think Xabi was specifically talking about slide tackling when he said it. That's what most people think of where "tackling" is concerned in this part of the world.

 

Xabi clearly thinks going to ground is a last resort and dangerous and is puzzled that it's considered an art by some. He's not sneering at it.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Swipe

[_00_deathscar]

If you think of tackling as going to the ground perhaps, but I don't think that's the definition of a tackle.

 

Lucas was the top tackler in Europe for a second year running before he got injured. It's a great quality, one of his best, and if Xabi disagrees I think Xabi is wrong.

 

Xabi himself is/was a master at nicking the ball off opposition feet through good timing and positioning. Think when he said 'tackling' he was specifically referring to slide tackling/going to ground.

[Epic Swindle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l2ZFcikza0

 

'av it.

[_00_deathscar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l2ZFcikza0

 

'av it.

 

To be fair, he and Mascherano are exceptional at that sort of tackle. And Gerrard also has a few other qualities to go with it...

[Cobs]

Xabi himself is/was a master at nicking the ball off opposition feet through good timing and positioning. Think when he said 'tackling' he was specifically referring to slide tackling/going to ground.

Which is still a skill

 

Xabi was talking bolllocks.

 

To be fair, he and Mascherano are exceptional at that sort of tackle. And Gerrard also has a few other qualities to go with it...

And why Xabi should know better

[_00_deathscar]

Which is still a skill

 

Xabi was talking bolllocks.

 

It is, but only if you know when/how to time it properly. And it should be a last resort, not the first attempt.

 

Xabi may have worded it incorrectly, but tackling is an art - certainly. Needlessly gonig to ground to slide tackle (e.g. what kids do on the playground to have a bit of fun sliding around, especially in the rain) is a waste of time.

 

And why Xabi should know better

 

 

 

[yellow jumper]

He knows exactly what he's saying and is in a strong position to say it.

[épieur]

He knows exactly what he's saying and is in a strong position to say it.

 

To be harsh, Xabi has never had the athleticism to be any good at the sliding tackle, the way Masch and Gerrard are. Could be said he doesn't quite appreciate it because he himself hasn't really had it in his arsenal.

 

Heard a commentator say recently PG had a tactic in training where when one team loses the ball they have six seconds to get it back!

 

Yeah, there is a video somewhere on youtube showing some of Guardiola's tactical ideas and how they get implemented in play. very clear pattern: Everyone runs like mad dogs for six seconds. If the opposition retains possession after that they fall back and focus more on containment.

 

It does a good job of showing what a great manager Guardiola is and how there is far more to this barca side than just sticking a bunch of great players who've all grown up on pass and move into the starting lineup.

[Buzz]

Firstly, I love Gerrards tackle on Neville in that vid and the kick up the a*** he gives himn as he slides into the corner flag.

Also, from the original posted artical, I think it is interseting that the secret footballer states that players are pissed of with Shreeves and Sky's general attitude to things straight after a game.

[Swan Red]

Is this the same Alonso that hit Nedved making his comeback from a broken foot.

 

So I've skimmed the thread but I suspect there's something lost in translation. I think we should veer from tackling being the limit of a players ambitions. It's a great skill to have but there's a lot more every really good central midfielders game.

[muleskinner]

He knows exactly what he's saying and is in a strong position to say it.

He is a brilliant, hard central midfielder who never shirks a challenge and gets his foot in first more often than not. It's precious nonsense that makes a mockery of his own game in a misguided attempt to make out his team don't need to tackle.

[Spike]

Slide tackling is still an art. A beautiful art when it's a man coming from behind and wrapping his foot around the ball. One of my favourite sights in the game that

[Billy Talbot]

I think Xabi has a point. We in England are obsessed with winning the ball back spectacularly.

 

Players, commentators and punters think it's always good thing, when in fact it sometimes, it shows a weakness in ball retention.

 

Individual tackling "skill" is lauded over team play and intelligence.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Billy Talbot

[Swan Red]

I think Xabi has a point. We in England are obsessed with winning the ball back spectacularly.

 

Players, commentators and punters think it's always good thing, when in fact it sometimes, it shows a weakness in ball retention.

 

Individual tackling "skill" is lauded over team play and intelligence.

 

And yet we laud performances like

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsOnfqr77fM

 

when it matches some brilliant tackles including a flawless interception against Toure with an all round fantastic performance. There's nothing wrong with celebrating tackling as a skill but it shouldn't be the only one a player brings.