Trust in Rafa?

[shaq]

Last I checked, we are fourth in the league with a game in hand over two of the teams above us. The only significant gap over is held by Arsenal, who have had an amazing start to the season, having dropped only 2 points from a possible 27. A bit skewed because of all the home games they've had, but at the end of the day, they are points in the bag.

 

Can I remind people where we were this time last season? After 9 games, we had 11 points, having already lost to Everton, Chelsea, Bolton and Man U.

 

The only reason we are not doing even better this season is that key players in the shape of Agger, Alonso and Torres have been injured, which has affected the whole team right through defence through to attack. Despite the loss of these players, we have still managed to get results even if at times it hasn't been pretty. Once Carra is back with Agger, I expect an improvement in his form, and a return to the defence that has looked so formidable since Agger has been a fixture. Once Alonso is back, I expect us controlling matches again that we have struggled to get to grips with recently. Although Torres has only been here a short time, we've seen what he's capable of. Yes, we should have a squad that is capable of being able to cope with injuries, but arguably, we have. Despite the injuries, we are ahead of Chelsea with a game in hand over them, and only 4 points behind Man U with a game in hand over them too. So we have been getting the results, one way or another.

 

Those that are suggesting that we get rid of our squad players - don't really know whether they are even worth responding to, but I'll try anyway. It's those squad players that have kept us in contention - and we are certainly still in contention. Yes, as nice as it would be to have Kaka as our link striker, with Messi sitting on the bench just in case Kaka gets injured, that ain't going to happen. Deal with it. We have a good squad now, with some quality youngsters in the shape of Babel, Lucas and Insua. Lucas has already shown that he's ready to pitch in with the first team (although I don't think he needs to be a regular starter at this point).

 

So who is responsible for all this? Can I suggest, maybe, the manager? For the reasons above, for the fact that we have several trophies to our name over the last few seasons, that is why I trust Rafa. For the fact that he has converted us into a European powerhouse again (a process that was started by the unfairly maligned Houllier), that is why I trust Rafa. It's not blind faith as someone suggested, it's faith based on evidence.

 

It's not all roses - our European form has gone down the pan, and we've lost a key member of staff. This could be down to Rafa's stubbornness, but as we don't know the details between what happened between Rafa and Pako, it's pointless to speculate. But that's who Rafa is, and you can't just remove that part of his personality. Mourinho was an odious c**t, but the Chelsea players and fans loved him, because his methods got results. Would Mourinho be just as successful if he wasn't such a knob? I don't think so, because personality is a massive factor in being a successful manager. The one thing that is common to all great managers is that they were strong personalities - Shankly, Clough, Ferguson. Take that away and you have a different person.

 

So are we going to be Liverpool fans, encouraging our team when they need our support, and not only when they are knocking in the sixth past Derby? Or are we going to be spoilt children, gnashing our teeth and wailing because we only beat Everton at Goodison in injury time?

 

I don't expect everyone to agree to this - this is only my opinion, and there will still be those that want Rafa out. They are not any less fans if they come in here and vent their anger on a messageboard. They may be wrong , but they are entitled to their opinion.

 

But when you go to the match, cheer on the red men for all you are worth, and cheer on Rafa until the day he leaves, because that will be a sad day for Liverpool.

[Huyton_Red]

(a process that was started by the unfairly maligned Houllier),

 

Good post apart from that

[John am Rhein]

Houllier was unfairly maligned and he DID get us competing in Europe again (we won the UEFA Cup, FFS) so it was a good post including that bit.

[shaq]

Good post apart from that

 

Remind yourself of where we were before Houllier came long. I think Houllier could have been replaced sooner (I'm certainly not advocating that he should still be here!), but he did a lot of good things for the club. Not only did he provide us with plenty of moments to savour, including the UEFA cup, it was with the core of his team that we won number 5. Not saying that he would have led us to Big ears if he'd stuck around, but he did lay a good enough basis for Rafa to take essentially that same team and go on to better things.

[Sion]

I think a lot of people set their expectations too high for this season.

 

We're playing very poorly, and yet we're still only 6 points off the top, to a team which have won 8/9 of their games and we have a game in hand over 2nd and 3rd.

 

The gap could easily be 3 if we get our act together and beat Arsenal at home, something we're very much capable of. They're not nearly as good as they've been made to look, and they and their fans are starting to believe their own hype. They have massive weaknesses, hopefully Crouch and Torres can exploit at t'weekend.

 

We've been without IMO, two of our most (if not the most) crucial players, in Alonso and Agger, for this poor run

 

If we're playing poor and are still only 6 points off the top, imagine how well we'll do when (if) we get our act together.

 

We've won 4/5 away PL games, including a win at Villa, where Chelsea lost and Everton as well as a respectable draw at Portsmouth.

Edited October 25, 2007 by Sion

[Wardy]

"Remind yourself of where we were before Houllier came long."

 

3rd in the league and playing attractive football?

 

Not giving Evans any money to spend?

 

Blocking moves for Thuram and Jaap Stam?

 

Skimping on contracts for star players?

Edited October 25, 2007 by Wardy

[pt101]

"Remind yourself of where we were before Houllier came long."

 

3rd in the league and playing attractive football?

 

Not giving Evans any money to spend?

 

Blocking moves for Thuram and Jaap Stam?

 

Skimping on contracts for star players?

 

Excellent point, one that many forget (or are too friggin young to remember the mid 90s!!)

[shaq]

"Remind yourself of where we were before Houllier came long."

 

3rd in the league and playing attractive football?

 

Not giving Evans any money to spend?

 

Blocking moves for Thuram and Jaap Stam?

 

Skimping on contracts for star players?

 

Under Evans, we won one trophy and never looked close to winning the league. Under Houllier we when numerous trophies, and improved in the league (but not by enough) Looking at our league record since ' ye olde days' underlines how much Benitez has taken the club forward. The fans that expect us to overhaul Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea in the blink of an eye are, to use my phrase of the day, 'living in cloud cuckoo land'.

[st.johns]

Bring back Houllier!

[Molby]

anyone who does not understand what Houllier did for us is an idiot

 

for the avoidance of doubt, what I'm trying to say is that anyone who does not understand what he did for us is a stupid, thick, imbecilic, idiot

[anny road]

Under Evans, we won one trophy and never looked close to winning the league. Under Houllier we when numerous trophies, and improved in the league (but not by enough) Looking at our league record since ' ye olde days' underlines how much Benitez has taken the club forward. The fans that expect us to overhaul Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea in the blink of an eye are, to use my phrase of the day, 'living in cloud cuckoo land'.

 

 

we should have won the league in 97

[Huyton_Red]

anyone who does not understand what Houllier did for us is an idiot

 

for the avoidance of doubt, what I'm trying to say is that anyone who does not understand what he did for us is a stupid, thick, imbecilic, idiot

 

Absolute f'ckin rubbish, as fowler said in his book, Liverpool thought they where getting a manager who would develop the youth system and produce lots of young players instead what they got was the worst kind of cheque book manager. Sh'te, sterile, dull football. The worst I have ever seen at anfield, evans Liverpool played fantastic football and were brilliant to watcj

 

He spent a f'ckin fortune and done no better than Roy Evans in the league, had roy evans been given the financial backing of houllier he would have won the thing, as another poster said - the likes of sherringham, desailly etc where all blocked by the board, the man came into the job, with a team that had just finished in the top for for three years and told everyone the club was rotten to the core and it would take 5 years to sort out, f'ckin rubbish

 

Evans was a far better manager than houllier and if he had been given the backing houllier was dare I say he may of even still been manager now

[anny road]

Absolute f'ckin rubbish, as fowler said in his book, Liverpool thought they where getting a manager who would develop the youth system and produce lots of young players instead what they got was the worst kind of cheque book manager. Sh'te, sterile, dull football. The worst I have ever seen at anfield, evans Liverpool played fantastic football and were brilliant to watcj

 

He spent a f'ckin fortune and done no better than Roy Evans in the league, had roy evans been given the financial backing of houllier he would have won the thing, as another poster said - the likes of sherringham, desailly etc where all blocked by the board, the man came into the job, with a team that had just finished in the top for for three years and told everyone the club was rotten to the core and it would take 5 years to sort out, f'ckin rubbish

 

Evans was a far better manager than houllier and if he had been given the backing houllier was dare I say he may of even still been manager now

 

 

Evans had his attributes but his man management was weak...players ran amok

 

not a good manager at all

[John am Rhein]

Absolute f'ckin rubbish, as fowler said in his book, Liverpool thought they where getting a manager who would develop the youth system and produce lots of young players instead what they got was the worst kind of cheque book manager. Sh'te, sterile, dull football. The worst I have ever seen at anfield, evans Liverpool played fantastic football and were brilliant to watcj

 

Robbie Fowler - now there's a a stupid, thick, imbecilic, idiot if ever there was one

[John am Rhein]

He spent a f'ckin fortune and done no better than Roy Evans in the league, had roy evans been given the financial backing of houllier he would have won the thing, as another poster said - the likes of sherringham, desailly etc where all blocked by the board, the man came into the job, with a team that had just finished in the top for for three years and told everyone the club was rotten to the core and it would take 5 years to sort out, f'ckin rubbish

 

You're living in a fantasy world, man

[st.johns]

Robbie Fowler - now there's a a stupid, thick, imbecilic, idiot if ever there was one

 

Yes , he really is thick- probably end up skint , when he's finished playing.

[shaq]

Absolute f'ckin rubbish, as fowler said in his book, Liverpool thought they where getting a manager who would develop the youth system and produce lots of young players instead what they got was the worst kind of cheque book manager. Sh'te, sterile, dull football. The worst I have ever seen at anfield, evans Liverpool played fantastic football and were brilliant to watcj

 

Hardly surprising that Robbie preferred the "regime" under Evans, him and the rest of the 'spice boys' could do what the hell they wanted, they had the run of the place. I'm sure I read/heard that they used to park their cars in the spaces reserved for the management team?

 

Do you really think with the culture that was in place at that time, we were ever going to get anywhere? We could get away with it then, but now, to win the league requires supreme conditioning, mentally, technically and physically. We wouldn't even be getting a sniff of CL if Evans was still here.

[John am Rhein]

Evans did pretty well for a while - upto 1997-ish, but his attacking style of football ultimately meant that we couldn't go any further without radically changing the way we played - which is, of course, exactly what GH did. By the time Evans left, things had gone seriously wrong to a far greater extent than they ever have under Houllier or Benitez.

[Huyton_Red]

Evans did pretty well for a while - upto 1997-ish, but his attacking style of football ultimately meant that we couldn't go any further without radically changing the way we played - which is, of course, exactly what GH did. By the time Evans left, things had gone seriously wrong to a far greater extent than they ever have under Houllier or Benitez.

 

It was not about changing the way we played it was about getting quality in

 

If they would have allowed him to buy the players he wanted (shearer or sherringham and stam or desailly) they would have been very, very close

[Molby]

Absolute f'ckin rubbish, as fowler said in his book, Liverpool thought they where getting a manager who would develop the youth system and produce lots of young players instead what they got was the worst kind of cheque book manager. Sh'te, sterile, dull football. The worst I have ever seen at anfield, evans Liverpool played fantastic football and were brilliant to watcj

 

He spent a f'ckin fortune and done no better than Roy Evans in the league, had roy evans been given the financial backing of houllier he would have won the thing, as another poster said - the likes of sherringham, desailly etc where all blocked by the board, the man came into the job, with a team that had just finished in the top for for three years and told everyone the club was rotten to the core and it would take 5 years to sort out, f'ckin rubbish

 

Evans was a far better manager than houllier and if he had been given the backing houllier was dare I say he may of even still been manager now

 

 

Huyton, I've never fallen out with you but you're talking like an idiot now

 

although I agree that our football was mostly great under Evans

 

ironically the best combination would indeed have been Evans and GH, given their respective strengths

 

also, our kids were mostly s**** - still are, so stop flogging that dead horse

[pipnasty]

It was not about changing the way we played it was about getting quality in

 

If they would have allowed him to buy the players he wanted (shearer or sherringham and stam or desailly) they would have been very, very close

 

 

But Evans spent s***loads of money (Babb, Scales, Collymore etc, etc, etc) and I'm sure that if Ronnie Moore at Tranmere was given money to buy all of the players he wanted he could probably win the league too.

 

The football culture at Liverpool during Evans era stunk and no amount of revisionism can change that. Houllier changed that and turned us into a force to be reckoned with once again.

[Bao]

Do you really think with the culture that was in place at that time, we were ever going to get anywhere? We could get away with it then, but now, to win the league requires supreme conditioning, mentally, technically and physically. We wouldn't even be getting a sniff of CL if Evans was still here.

Strange to stick up for Houllier and slag off Roy Evans.

Evans came in at a very difficult time and did a good job of pulling us out of what could have been very dark times. Once his time was up, he left us in stronger shape than when he came in. Same with Houllier. Both did a good job in their own circumstances and were ultimately found wanting in time, Let's see what happens with Rafa.

[pipnasty]

Evans came in at a very difficult time and did a good job of pulling us out of what could have been very dark times. Once his time was up, he left us in stronger shape than when he came in.

 

 

I agree with that too - I've got no problem with Uncle Roy and it is frightening to think of where we may be if it wasn't for him.

[Leo No.8]

Good initial post Shaq.

 

The problem with this game we all love so dearly, and the incredible bond we have with our club is that losing and seeing the team play poorly hurts so much and people feel the need to come to places like this to get things off their chests.

 

Consequently you can see a lot of things said in the heat of the moment which people then feel the need to back up; like Snorky's ridiculous carrying on since last night, which he may feel pretty bloody silly about if things pick up as I think they will with the return of three of our best technical footballers in Agger, Alonso and Torres.

 

I know how much it hurts to see the team play badly; I spend most games in which we struggle in a state of almost perpetual rage myself with just about everyone including the boss. However you have to be able to calm down, take a step back and look at the big picture. Rafa is out of form at the moment along with most of his players; it happens, in every walk of life we have bad days and at times bad spells.

 

Yes we have struggled of late, with for Rafa's part some dubious team selections and substitutions. We have lost twice against inferior opposition in The Champions League which has been hugely disappointing, but you only have to look back over the last few years to see that Rafael Benitez is almost without question the most successful manager in European Football.

 

You can't really put it any more clearly than that; Rafa is the most successful manager in European football of recent years. The evidence being an incredible Champions League, UEFA Cup with Valencia and Champions League runners-up to his name in the last four years. That is an astonishing record, so if we fail this year then that's life - it was probably coming in all honesty.

 

It's fine to question the manager's decisions, that's what forums like this are for. However you need to take that from game to game and retain some sort of perspective on our position with the current manager, how far we have come and where we are going under him without jumping to rash conlusions.

 

Personally, I simply don't understand anyone who can do all that yet still feel Rafa Benitez isn't the right man for the job as Liverpool manager. It's completely nonsensical and knee jerking of the highest degree.

Edited October 25, 2007 by Leo No.8

[shaq]

Strange to stick up for Houllier and slag off Roy Evans.

Evans came in at a very difficult time and did a good job of pulling us out of what could have been very dark times. Once his time was up, he left us in stronger shape than when he came in. Same with Houllier. Both did a good job in their own circumstances and were ultimately found wanting in time, Let's see what happens with Rafa.

 

HANG SOUNESS!!!

 

I think the key is that the culture that was allowed to develop under Evans meant that we were never going to be quite good enough. We didn't have all bad players under Evans, we had some bloody quality players in fact. The fact is, that those quality players never had the strong enough desire that is required to go all the way. Case in point, David James was a good goalie when he concentrated, but his being a unprofessional knob cost us our best chance of winning the league. Reina on the other hand is a supreme professional who is determined to improve. You don't see him switching off in a game regardless of how little he has to do, because he's been playing cocking playstation all night.