Genealogy

[Murphman]

 

Our family history is absolutely riddled with historical gaps and mysteries, my own life being born in Liverpool of Scouse parents but brought up on a council estate in Buckinghamshire detached me from any regular meaningful conversations with a lot of the older generation. My Dad’s side The Murphy’s is more transparent, but my Mother was a Flannery and there are many contradictory tales, it doesn’t help that my Grandparents both died withing a year of each other a couple of years before I was born.

After my parents and Grandparents died the link to the past became even more fragile. My last Auntie died in 2008, my two eldest cousins both died in the last two years, the past is slipping away, and I’ve been very conscious of it.

I recently applied for and got Irish Citizenship through my paternal Grandmother Elizabeth Doyle who whilst she lived in Liverpool for most of her life was born in County Wicklow. My Grandad John Murphy was born in Old Swan, his parents were Irish, yet one of their parents was born in Liverpool. The Irish diaspora isn’t just a mass immigration to Liverpool during the Great Famine, it certainly is where and where the bulk of the people came from but there was plenty of back and forth going on too for many years.

During a post mentioning the 60’s Liverpool music scene I asked Ripley if he remembered Lee Curtis and the All Stars to which he snorted ‘of course I do? (Sorry Rippers). I then proudly announced he was my cousin, and even though I’d never met him my Mum would always go on about him and I also remember watching them on TV when I was very young. Since those days I had thought Lee’s father Chris, also the father of his more famous brother Joe Flannery (Manager of The Beatles) and my Grandfather Tom Flannery were brothers

Then came the most astonishing post I’ve ever read on here in almost 20 years from KAMF.

‘My Dad is the drummer for Lee Curtis and the All Stars’.

I spoke with KAMF who confirmed, his Dad currently sits in a seat previously occupied by Pete Best, just wow, where on earth do I go with this?

KAMF’s Dad sort of took over because he phoned me up and we had a chat, he’s a really good guy and he told me Lee would be happy to talk with me and gave me his number. So I called Peter (Lee) up and we talked for almost an hour. What a life he’s led, he's 81 now, he spent a couple of years in Hamburg in the early 60’s as so many Scouse bands did and as a hangover from those days has a German ‘fan club’ who come over and see him play to this day (Throwung their corsets and teeth onto the stage). They played (Pre-Coronavirus) every Thursday night, there was lots more but what a conversation we had and we’ve agreed to meet up when they are able to play again.

One thing bothered me though, our conversations didn’t add up in parts. I cross referenced my cousin who also phoned Lee, he had met Lee's Dad Chris Flannery plenty of times having visited their home regularly with his mum, my cousin also agreed with me there were lots missing, plenty not adding up and something was wrong.

 

It drove me nuts, so I had a go at Find My Past, a genealogy site.

It’s murderous (although it gets easier as you keep searching) I gathered loads of information, but it seems each answer opened another question. Some of it was quite distressing, I found my Grandmother (age 3 at entry) and her two young sisters on the Workhouse register together. Further digging revealed it's not as bad as it sounds perhaps, they were in The Fazakerley Cottage Home which wasn’t a Workhouse more a massive barracks for poor children in care. The three girls pop up again in the 1901 census all living with the Flannery family in a tenement building , numbers 2 and 5 Newsham Street off Scotland Road,. Eventually two of the girls married two of the Flannery brothers one being my Grandfather, the other being the father of Chris Flannery born in 1906, I had finally cracked it, Chris wasn’t my Grandad’s brother he was his nephew, his father Joe was Tom’s brother. Suddenly it all made sense.

These were proper slum dwellings by the way their lives must have been dreadful, the photographs tell a grim tale indeed..

Now the mystery we will never solve. My mother was a devout Catholic, so was her mother, so were all of her sisters. In Joe Flannery’s book the very first chapter is dedicated to his childhood, how his family were from East Dublin and Mayo, all Irish Catholics, how he almost trained to become a Priest (Him being gay may well have caused a problem there but anyway..) and was still a devout Catholic at the time of the book, he is aged 82.

So, the mystery is, with this background how was my Grandfather who whilst marrying a Catholic woman, had a Catholic brother and Catholic kids end up being an Orangeman who never ever went into a Catholic church, even to see his daughters married?

The point of the post is, has anybody else had a go at this, have they opened up a Pandoras Box of mysteries, tragedies or eye openers. I still have loads to do on this and I have some cousins on the job too but I doubt I’ll ever find out how Grandad Tom with 100 of years of Catholicism in his family became a member of The Orange Order?

[Gunga Din]

interesting that Murph. i'd love to have a crack at it myself. i know i had a great grandfather who fought in the 1916 rising, ending up in Bolands Mill under the command of De Valera, a man who he apparently despised the rest of his life. on my dads side, I am related to John Mitchel, who was a famous Irish Nationalist during the 19th century. My material grandmothers family is the one i'd like to research though. she was born in staffordshire, her mother died when she was very young, and her father, who came back from the first world war a broken man abandoned her and her brother and sister. they all got separated and lost contact. she met my grandfather when he was living in Birmingham during world war 2, and came to Ireland with him. She spent a lot of her life trying to find her brother and sister and never did. although a few years ago i managed to trace what happened her sister after about 20 minutes of looking online, although she had died in the late 1980s. ive never found her brother though, its not helped by him having the really common name of Fred Green and me having very little to goon.  im hoping the release of the 1921 census next year will help me find  out a bit more

[Bootser]

Genealogy is brill. I’ve both parents families back to c1820 but can’t get beyond that as they were not land owners or farmers etc.  I did get a friend of mine back to 1700’s as her family were land owners in Enniskillen. I’d be happy to help any Irish  Forumites with doing traces etc.  I have full access to PRONI and several genealogical websites. 

It has certainly thrown up mysteries, surprises and skeletons in the cupboard. Happy hunting

[New York Red]

Pretty cool stuff Murph. Geology is really fascinating. 

My Father’s side is dominated by Irish culture. His Father was ostracized by his family because he married a Cardiff Irish Catholic from Tiger Bay. His family came to Wales from Buckinghamshire in the 1850’s. His Mother’s family were all from Wexford. Kennedy’s and Sullivan’s. They came over to work in the mines around Merthyr right after the famine and then moved to Cardiff in the late 1800’s.

My Mother’s side. All over the shop. Not a nice bunch, although her Mother was a saint.

 

[cocknose]

Nice post mate.

A DNA kit arrived today from ancestry.com for me so that is a massive coincidence, I am going to send the saliva kit back and see what comes from it and maybe start looking up the tree.

I was estranged from my Mum, and not a huge fan of the majority of her family, they were all from Limerick, mentioned on here before that we were due to meet up again and potentially reconcile after a long time apart a week after she died, lots of unanswered questions from her side but not sure I want to know, the stories she told me when I was young about children's homes and abuse were pretty bad, pretty sure she only has a half sister left now in Milton Keynes.

My Dads side was different, would have loved to know them more but most died before I was born (He was 55 when he had me) He died 9 years ago now and I regret so much not asking him more questions near the end but I didnt know he was going to die  , he had a pretty colourful past from the stories I did listen to as a kid, he arrived in Liverpool from Belfast during the war as a 16/17 year old pulling bodies off boats he once told me, he ended up in County London as they used to call it by the time I came along and I grew up between Brentford with my Mum during the week and Uxbridge with him at weekends.

I am sure I have loads of family in the Belfast/Crumlin area from his side but all his siblings died by the time I was 12, I did find his Dads grave last time I was back there to scatter his ashes.

Will be interested in how you get on.

[Maldini]

I've tried this as we have a very unusual surname (the only people I've encountered with it are all related to me in some way) but you almost always hit a roadblock at some stage when trying to do this in Ireland because a lot of the records were burned when the Custom House went on fire during the civil war.

[cymrococh]

My Uncle did a lot of research into my mum's side of the family, nothing particularly mindblowing although her surname basically tracks back to the Norman invasion and some knight who was given lands in Pembrokeshire by William the Conqueror. So my family has been round here a LONG time.

Edited April 21, 2020 by cymrococh

[charlie clown]

I'd done a lot of digging on my maternal family and my wife's on both sides but my dad's side kept hitting a roadblock until I had a random conversation with my Uncle Jim about six years ago who mentioned that he had seen the daughter of his Canadian cousin. I got in touch with her (she is about my age) and it turned out to be the key that unlocked the door. She had done vast amounts of research into my dad's side of the family and had logged it all (including family photos) on the My Heritage website. It tells quite an astonishing story (and allowed one of my daughters to start telling people that although she is British in terms of nationality she is genealogically and culturally half Scandinavian and half Argentinian  ).

As Wayne says, the release of the 1921 census in the not-too-distant is going to be a fantastic addition to the research tool-kit but the pace at which records are becoming digitised is so great that there are constantly loads of new records and sources becoming available.    

Edited April 21, 2020 by charlie clown

[Murphman]

12 hours ago, Bootser said:

Genealogy is brill. I’ve both parents families back to c1820 but can’t get beyond that as they were not land owners or farmers etc.  I did get a friend of mine back to 1700’s as her family were land owners in Enniskillen. I’d be happy to help any Irish  Forumites with doing traces etc.  I have full access to PRONI and several genealogical websites. 

It has certainly thrown up mysteries, surprises and skeletons in the cupboard. Happy hunting

When a family listing shows those born in the UK it states the town of birth, if they were born in Ireland but settled in the UK the place of birth is simply Ireland. That's one huge obstacle thus far, and thanks for the offer Bootser, hopefully I might have to take you up on it.

All of your tales are of great interest lads, the main problem with this, none of us gave a f*ck when we were kids and now we've replaced the old ones there is often nobody to ask.

 

 

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

I think it’s like hearing about other people’s dreams 

[cocknose]

13 hours ago, Bootser said:

Genealogy is brill. I’ve both parents families back to c1820 but can’t get beyond that as they were not land owners or farmers etc.  I did get a friend of mine back to 1700’s as her family were land owners in Enniskillen. I’d be happy to help any Irish  Forumites with doing traces etc.  I have full access to PRONI and several genealogical websites. 

It has certainly thrown up mysteries, surprises and skeletons in the cupboard. Happy hunting

That sounds good mate, might take you up on that

 

[New York Red]

19 hours ago, cymrococh said:

My Uncle did a lot of research into my mum's side of the family, nothing particularly mindblowing although her surname basically tracks back to the Norman invasion and some knight who was given lands in Pembrokeshire by William the Conqueror. So my family has been round here a LONG time.

I’d really like to buy a place in Solva one day. The memories that I have of that place from when I was a kid are very vivid. I loved it there. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by New York Red

[cymrococh]

Maybe just go there on holiday, in the process contributing to the local economy rather than taking scarce housing resource out of the hands of local people.

[Bootser]

Murph And Cocknose (I can’t believe I just typed that); have limited scope online at Public Records NI.  It’s currently on lockdown. But I’ll certainly have a go at making connections.  The one that I got for a friend going back to 1700’s was a pure fluke. The surname was Lynn but going backwards it was also Lyn, and Linn. Their records were from a bunch of partial records on the Southern Irish Genealogy Site which I’m sure you’re both aware off. Caveat - my Paternal Grandfather was in the Connaught Rangers during WWI. He was badly injured during shelling and was pensioned off. He was married and had several children but his wife died. He remarried and his wife was a widow with several children. They went on to have three more kids, my Da being the last. Anyways after looking a while I “thought” bingo. I then spent a few weeks tracing this all back only to find I was completely on the wrong track.

I discovered this when I phoned my only surviving Aunt/ Uncle and said I’d found her and when I said the name she immediately said “No, that’s not it”. She couldn’t remember the name but just knew it wasn’t that one.  She’s 94 now and I get as much info out of her as I can. So just be careful at going up the wrong alley. Easy to do!

 

 

 

 

 

[Murphman]

6 hours ago, Bootser said:

Murph And Cocknose (I can’t believe I just typed that); have limited scope online at Public Records NI.  It’s currently on lockdown. But I’ll certainly have a go at making connections.  The one that I got for a friend going back to 1700’s was a pure fluke. The surname was Lynn but going backwards it was also Lyn, and Linn. Their records were from a bunch of partial records on the Southern Irish Genealogy Site which I’m sure you’re both aware off. Caveat - my Paternal Grandfather was in the Connaught Rangers during WWI. He was badly injured during shelling and was pensioned off. He was married and had several children but his wife died. He remarried and his wife was a widow with several children. They went on to have three more kids, my Da being the last. Anyways after looking a while I “thought” bingo. I then spent a few weeks tracing this all back only to find I was completely on the wrong track.

I discovered this when I phoned my only surviving Aunt/ Uncle and said I’d found her and when I said the name she immediately said “No, that’s not it”. She couldn’t remember the name but just knew it wasn’t that one.  She’s 94 now and I get as much info out of her as I can. So just be careful at going up the wrong alley. Easy to do!

 

 

 

 

 

My uncle gave me his Grandparents date of birth and marriage. Three days later it transpired he'd given me details for the wrong Grandparents, not his fault, he's 84 but you know...  I appear to be hitting a block when it gets to the Irish connections, it's hard enough anyway but then unless you know where to look it's a blind alley. I know exactly where and when my Nan was born but she doesn't show on the available searches on the site, I even have her birth certificate so don't actually need anything but that I couldn't find her is pretty crap really, I need that link to try to go back to the 1980's, but it's likely to be in Bray and that's all I have.

[Bootser]

Murph. Ping me a PM with a few names DOBs or dates of marriage and I’ll have a crack.. No promises except I’ll do my best. If you know which County in Ireland that would be useful.

[DazzlaJ]

On 21/04/2020 at 11:34, Kvarme Ate My Food said:

I think it’s like hearing about other people’s dreams 

Knowing what c**** most of my family was and hers, I think i would rather not know where it all started.

My dad died before my kids were born and apart from him they can all f*** off.

 

Yes I wish I had a big family at holidays and such but not filled with the complete c**** I was dealt with.

 

Anyhow keep searching, live long and prosper.

 

[Bootser]

Dazzla

Have you thought about giving it a go? The whole process can be quite cathartic. I don’t mean in a Who do you think you are way, but  simply putting a backdrop to their lives.. I appreciate that you might not wish to dig and delve into the past but it’s maybe a coin worth tossing.

[Murphman]

4 hours ago, Bootser said:

Murph. Ping me a PM with a few names DOBs or dates of marriage and I’ll have a crack.. No promises except I’ll do my best. If you know which County in Ireland that would be useful.

Cheers mate. I'm awaiting about four certificates in the hope there'll be a bit more on them, I also have a cousin in Liverpool whose mother was my Nan's sister but much younger than my Nan and (I think) born in Walton, I've not managed to speak with her yet. I have Nan's parents names but not dates of birth and (yet) Nan was born in Arklow so I'd be very surprised if they're not from Wicklow. My paternal Grandad is a more of a mystery, he was born in Liverpool not Ireland that much I do know, but the trail is pretty cold at the moment.  I appreciate the offer and when I have more I'll drop you an email, thanks again.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Murphman

[Falconhoof]

6 hours ago, DazzlaJ said:

Knowing what c**** most of my family was and hers, I think i would rather not know where it all started.

My dad died before my kids were born and apart from him they can all f*** off.

 

Yes I wish I had a big family at holidays and such but not filled with the complete c**** I was dealt with.

 

Anyhow keep searching, live long and prosper.

 

Same here. Proper f***ed up parents. CBA looking any further.

6 hours ago, Bootser said:

Dazzla

Have you thought about giving it a go? The whole process can be quite cathartic. I don’t mean in a Who do you think you are way, but  simply putting a backdrop to their lives.. I appreciate that you might not wish to dig and delve into the past but it’s maybe a coin worth tossing.

Sometimes it’s reassuring to remind yourself that it’s not their fault. Their parents, their grandparents lived through dark times in crushing poverty, so it’s no wonder.

[Bootser]

Murph & Cocknose  http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/epubs/primer.pdf   An interesting and informative read.

[Murphman]

On 29/04/2020 at 12:35, Bootser said:

Murph & Cocknose http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/epubs/primer.pdf   An interesting and informative read.

Bootser I missed this and the link doesn't work?

 

Update. Having got over the shock of discovering my Great Grandfather on my mother's side was called Ralph (I was expecting Seamus or Patrick) I have a copy of my Great Grandfather John Doyle's death certificate. My Irish Great Grandfather died in Liverpool in 1948, he was residing at the Kirkdale Homes which is a sanctuary for the poor and infirm. Poor John died of pneumonia and other complications from a broken femur, the result of an accident when he was 'blown over by a gust of wind accidentally'. You really could not make this up could you?

[libero]

Many moons ago I got a copy of an extract from a Family bible from a great aunt on my Nana's side and it got me into the genealogy sites. Managed to get back to the 1500's through Parish records etc. 

Tried looking on my Di's (Di is a fife mining term for grandad and it's what my grandson calls me) side but really drew a blank due to Robert Millar being a very popular name up here and didn't really have much info to go on. Tail end of last year had a breakthrough after a cousin of my dad got in touch. Managed to get loads of info with some fascinating stuff. My Di's Di murdered my Di's Gran and spent the last 40 odd years of his life in prison.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1763598690346318&id=516920995014100

My mum was born in Oswestry and lost her mum quite young, she moved up here lock stock and barrel when I was born and didn't have that much contact with family so I only knew a couple from her side. Few years ago a cousin she had never met got in touch through another cousin. Fortunately her husband 

[Murphman]

On 20/06/2020 at 06:22, libero said:

Many moons ago I got a copy of an extract from a Family bible from a great aunt on my Nana's side and it got me into the genealogy sites. Managed to get back to the 1500's through Parish records etc. 

Tried looking on my Di's (Di is a fife mining term for grandad and it's what my grandson calls me) side but really drew a blank due to Robert Millar being a very popular name up here and didn't really have much info to go on. Tail end of last year had a breakthrough after a cousin of my dad got in touch. Managed to get loads of info with some fascinating stuff. My Di's Di murdered my Di's Gran and spent the last 40 odd years of his life in prison.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1763598690346318&id=516920995014100

My mum was born in Oswestry and lost her mum quite young, she moved up here lock stock and barrel when I was born and didn't have that much contact with family so I only knew a couple from her side. Few years ago a cousin she had never met got in touch through another cousin. Fortunately her husband 

'kin hell. I thought I'd made a breakthrough by narrowing my family down to Wicklow and Wexford with a drop of Dublin thrown in. It was tough going but at least nobody murdered anybody (to the best of my knowledge)

[Bootser]

Great research my Caledonian friend.  It’s bizarre that you find a link to your past and get so very close to them. Many had such awful lives and the rate of children’s deaths and the general mortality rate was so high. Murph, will try and get a better link tomorrow