So what would you do?

[Knox_Harrington]

If we allow for these two rather modest things:

 

a) That the manager can spend what he raises

b) That he isn't shafted from having the freedom to do some deals due to internal politics

 

(and allowing for them is still obscenely hopeful, but this shouldn't be an ownership discussion)

 

Then its obvious that a fair few things need to be changed. There are three aspects of our play that need addressing and while they are obviously inter dependent:

 

1) We don't get out high enough.

2) We don't control games anywhere near as much as we used to.

3) Our attacking movement isn't good enough.

 

There's a fourth aspect which isn't directly to do with play but does impact - our lack of physical presence.

 

Dealing with 1) It is undeniable that Insua isn't good enough to start. He can be beaten any way you care to mention. Further, Kyriagkos, while he's helped our defending of set pieces (and, frankly, our strength of character) he can't play a high line. As a fourth choice centre back he's fine. As anything more, no. Carragher and Agger would both look happier with a better player than the other next to them. Skrtel's place in the squad was debatable last season. He's a good player but greatness has always looked beyond him. Since Carragher's doombrain moment where he's ruined him Skrtel's looked very, very short of what we need. Means we still need the centre back we could have done with last summer.

 

Right back, any concerns over Johnson are churlish, he'll be happier the higher we are, Kelly's cameo looked good. Degen's too mad. Aurelio's too finished. Ayala looks like he may have something. We need a left back.

 

2) Controlling games. What Alonso did for us with Mascherano looks to be almost unique. Even Xavi, the finest around, has two centre mid partners. Barcelona, United, Chelsea, Arsenal (at their best), Inter - every side who's any good in Europe looks to be playing three centre mids far more often than not. That doesn't preclude Chelsea, for example, from playing two up front, but they are almost always playing three from their raft of centre mids, especially if you include Malouda who has spent the season tucked in. For us the man who looks most like he has the attributes to control football matches is Aquilani. He's not going to do it from where Alonso did it, but then only Pirlo does. Lampard or Deco run games for Chelsea, Fabregas for Arsenal, Xavi, obviously, for Barcelona. Seeing Aquilani in the context of these players makes more sense but also tells us he needs a platform. He needs options all around him and he needs his water carrying. Mascherano is clearly good enough. But the bridge between Masch and Aquilani is a thankless role but one I don't fancy Lucas for, not as first choice. Gerrard acting as that bridge wastes his talent (which is important in a financial context - final third players as good as Gerrard cost a bomb, good centre mid water-carriers don't) but it maybe needs more talent week in, week out than Lucas can offer. Also, the numbers issue. We need more centre mid options than we currently have. A figure who can rotate with Aquilani, a seasoned pro, would be a massive boost. No coincidence Chelsea can look light up front but deep in centre mid.

 

3) Movement. In Aquilani we have a class act who should start games, who looks to be able to keep us ticking and probe. Who he probes to is what will decide how much attacking quality we have. Therefore Gerrard and Torres go without saying. Movement, class, intelligence, pace, size, goals. We haven't another player who offers all of those. Each of Yossi, Maxi, Babel and Kuyt fall short. None can be our first choice and they need to be sacrificed to get us close to another who is good enough. Even that's a gamble. Proven final third quality is far more likely to be 20m plus than proven centre mid quality; another reason to keep Gerrard in a more attacking role - why take two gambles? But leaving Gerrard alone to link shouldn't be an option either. Again, three centre mids offers liberation to have two behind rather than just one. This season our 4231 which looked great last season has too often become 4411 or even 442 (again, see control and defending too deep) and is ugly and dysfunctional. Take the liberty, play 4321 or 433 and let those flanking or supporting Torres focus on that. There's an obsession, shared by Chelsea and United, to get lads behind the ball. Barcelona don't do that. Messi works but he often presses from the wrong side - once the ball goes past him he's happy to stay up and he keeps people back and if the ball comes back he presses again. Messi's brilliant so he needs watching. Dirk, Babel, Maxi and Yossi just aren't going to provoke the same concern from full backs and centre backs. Gerrard does. Another of him to do likewise would make a massive difference and allow them to interchange and hurt sides with intelligence and movement.

 

Jovanovic is supposed to be a player who can play off towards the left so he covers there for no transfer fee, Maxi's come in and looks a clever, clever footballer and looks reasonably priced. This makes all of Kuyt, Yossi and Babel vulnerable and I'd take the gamble given how tight money is. Yossi's the one I'd look to keep hold of if possible but nonetheless...

 

N'Gog should go and someone big and quick should come in. Doesn't have to be a worldbeater, just has to make the opposition worried about what could happen behind them.

 

Means looking like this:

 

Johnson -- xxxx1 -- Agger -- xxxx2

- Kelly - Carragher - The Greek -

 

------ Mascherano - xxxx3 -------

--------------- Lucas ----------------*

 

-------------- Aquilani ------------

---------------- xxxx4 -------------

 

--------- Gerrard ---- xxxx5 ----------

---------- Maxi ---- Jovanovic ------

 

---------------- Torres ---------------

----------------- xxxx6 ----------------

 

* I'd like another centre mid, but...

 

Youngsters such as Nemeth, Pacheco and Ayala can come in.

 

We've a fighting chance. With the right additions - mostly tall ones, if xxxxs 1-3 are all six footers then we can pick a minimum of nine six footers in our first eleven - we can be solid but have more quality in the first eleven. These players who have featured for the first team to go:

 

Cavilari, Degen, Skrtel, Aurelio, Insua, Spearing, Plessis, (Lucas if the price is right), Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun (maybe, depends on price), Riera and N'Gog.

 

The money therefore might stretch to a very good centre back, someone with the potential to be very good to be alongside Gerrard, a good centre mid who can put it about and solidity elsewhere. I'd try and tempt Riquelme to cover Aquilani. But everyone will slaughter that. So get Gary Mac out of retirement.

 

Lastly, I don't think the manager is miles away from something like this. When he buys Aquilani he knows he's not buying Alonso. He said as much. He's always been about a high line and pressing. Question mark is if he'd let three stay ahead of the ball. Having said that, three ahead of the ball may be a luxury too far in this league. Getting out and getting control have to be the priorities. If we do that, the rest should come.

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

Good post, but I think you need to identify options for xxxx1-6 to get full marks.

 

I'm not convinced that your plan works, because I'm not convinced you raise as much in sales as you need to spend on acquisitions.

[Buzz]

------ Mascherano - xxxx3 -------

--------------- Lucas ----------------*

I'd like to see Scott Parker in there as xxxx3 and not just because he has had a good season, he is consistant, good at defending, passing, shooting and works hard for his teams.

[Alonso]

Good post, but I think you need to identify options for xxxx1-6 to get full marks.

 

I'm not convinced that your plan works, because I'm not convinced you raise as much in sales as you need to spend on acquisitions.

At least 4 of those players would have to be "English" as well due to us only having 4 out of a required 8 English trained players in a squad of 25.

[Maldini]

To raise funds we're going to need to take a few risks so a couple of quality players might need to go to raise funds ie: Dirk and Yossi. I'd take £10m for each of them if it was offered. The likes of Skrtel, Cavalieri, Riera, Babel, El Zhar, Spearing, Plessis and Degen are certs to leave in my opinion as long as we can get decent money.

 

In terms of replacements that depends on the amount we get in, but I think it's the £10-15m range we'll have to look at so the likes of

 

CB: Kjaer, Cahill

LB: Kolarov

LW/RW: Turan, Krasic

CM: Banega, Martinez

 

are candidates.

 

Selling players will be a struggle though as people know we need the money.

[baz2107]

Keep (as long as they want to be at club) Johnson, Agger, Gerrard, Torres, Kyrgiakos, Maxi, Mascherano, Carragher, Reina, plus youngsters such as Kelly, Ayala, Pacheco (although if a Wigan/West Brom type wanted him til xmas I'd think about it)

 

Keep (unless big offer comes in) Aquilani, Insua, Kuyt, Nemeth (give him pre season)

 

Sell: Cavalieri, Aurelio (free) Babel, Degen, Skrtel,Lucas, Ngog (although if we got a loan fee I wouldn't be against seeing him loaned to a lower prem side for 6 months) Spearing, Plessis, Darby, Riera

 

also get rid of all the tripe in the reserve team who aren't ever going to make it here (Brouwer, Weijl, Bruna etc) let the lads not playing first team football and youngsters from under 18's make the step up to reserve football, players playing for the reserves need to have either first team potential or be young players you aren't quite sure about yet, players at 19/20 who don't shine at reserve level aren't going to mke it

 

Squad.

GK: Reina, New Backup keeper (preferably British and experienced eg Maik Taylor) Gulasci/Bouzanis (other goes on loan)

 

Full Backs: Johnson, Kelly, New Left Back not sure who'd be available & good enough though, Insua (as back up, still think there's a decent player in there but he's played too many games in a poor team this season)

 

Centre Backs: Carragher, Agger, New CB (Kjaer/Cahill would be my choice) Kyrgiakos

 

Centre Midfield: Gerrard, Mascherano, Aquilani, Scott Parker

 

Wide Players: Maxi,, Joe Cole, and an out and out pacy left Winger who can hog touchline like Riera did last season but with more quality

 

Centre Forwards: Torres, Kuyt, Jovanovic, New CF (Think Jones or Pavlyuchenko would do a job, would prefer someone quicker but not really sure who's around

 

Cost: Backup keeper minimal, New Left Back (8-10m) Cahill/Kjaer (12m) Parker (8m) Cole and Jovanovic (signing on fee) Striker (10m) Winger 12m Total 50m

 

Sales: Babel (8m) Yossi (8m) Cavalieri (2m) Lucas (5m) Skrtel (6m) Ngog (2m) Riera (5m) Degen/Spearing/Darby/Plessis + other reserves (3m combined). Total 39m

 

Youngsters to come in as and when necessary: Ayala, Shelvey, Mavinga, Robinson, Dalla Valle, Nemeth, Pacheco

 

That an 11m spend in the summer if prices are accurate, Kuyt, Gerrard and Jovanovic can also cover wide areas if necessary. Would get the side playing a higher tempo game and there are 2 or different formations that could be played. Only issue is finding the 11m!!!

[Maldini]

I think/hope adding Jovanovic as a forward will be enough as we've other positions that need to be strengthened for the first team. Also Gulacsi is more than good enough to be back up, don't think we need another keeper.

[fred milne]

I think we need to bring in a mobile aerially-dominant defender (G Cahill?), a centre-mid with a proper footballing brain and a mobile target man with physical presence (C Cole?). That's three "spinal" players so it won't be cheap. I'd therefore look to sell Aquilani, Kuyt, Babel and Riera.

 

 

When we're at home we'd line-up:

 

Reina

Johnson NewCB Agger Insua

Maxi NewCM Gerrard Yossi

NewCF Torres

 

 

When we're away we'd line-up:

 

Reina

Johnson Skrtel NewCB Agger

Yossi Masch NewCM Gerrard

NewCF Torres

 

 

We'd also have the likes of Carra, Kelly, Lucas and Pacheco in reserve.

[Siang]

If we allow for these two rather modest things:

 

a) That the manager can spend what he raises

b) That he isn't shafted from having the freedom to do some deals due to internal politics

 

(and allowing for them is still obscenely hopeful, but this shouldn't be an ownership discussion)

 

Then its obvious that a fair few things need to be changed. There are three aspects of our play that need addressing and while they are obviously inter dependent:

 

1) We don't get out high enough.

2) We don't control games anywhere near as much as we used to.

3) Our attacking movement isn't good enough.

 

There's a fourth aspect which isn't directly to do with play but does impact - our lack of physical presence.

 

Dealing with 1) It is undeniable that Insua isn't good enough to start. He can be beaten any way you care to mention. Further, Kyriagkos, while he's helped our defending of set pieces (and, frankly, our strength of character) he can't play a high line. As a fourth choice centre back he's fine. As anything more, no. Carragher and Agger would both look happier with a better player than the other next to them. Skrtel's place in the squad was debatable last season. He's a good player but greatness has always looked beyond him. Since Carragher's doombrain moment where he's ruined him Skrtel's looked very, very short of what we need. Means we still need the centre back we could have done with last summer.

 

Right back, any concerns over Johnson are churlish, he'll be happier the higher we are, Kelly's cameo looked good. Degen's too mad. Aurelio's too finished. Ayala looks like he may have something. We need a left back.

 

2) Controlling games. What Alonso did for us with Mascherano looks to be almost unique. Even Xavi, the finest around, has two centre mid partners. Barcelona, United, Chelsea, Arsenal (at their best), Inter - every side who's any good in Europe looks to be playing three centre mids far more often than not. That doesn't preclude Chelsea, for example, from playing two up front, but they are almost always playing three from their raft of centre mids, especially if you include Malouda who has spent the season tucked in. For us the man who looks most like he has the attributes to control football matches is Aquilani. He's not going to do it from where Alonso did it, but then only Pirlo does. Lampard or Deco run games for Chelsea, Fabregas for Arsenal, Xavi, obviously, for Barcelona. Seeing Aquilani in the context of these players makes more sense but also tells us he needs a platform. He needs options all around him and he needs his water carrying. Mascherano is clearly good enough. But the bridge between Masch and Aquilani is a thankless role but one I don't fancy Lucas for, not as first choice. Gerrard acting as that bridge wastes his talent (which is important in a financial context - final third players as good as Gerrard cost a bomb, good centre mid water-carriers don't) but it maybe needs more talent week in, week out than Lucas can offer. Also, the numbers issue. We need more centre mid options than we currently have. A figure who can rotate with Aquilani, a seasoned pro, would be a massive boost. No coincidence Chelsea can look light up front but deep in centre mid.

 

3) Movement. In Aquilani we have a class act who should start games, who looks to be able to keep us ticking and probe. Who he probes to is what will decide how much attacking quality we have. Therefore Gerrard and Torres go without saying. Movement, class, intelligence, pace, size, goals. We haven't another player who offers all of those. Each of Yossi, Maxi, Babel and Kuyt fall short. None can be our first choice and they need to be sacrificed to get us close to another who is good enough. Even that's a gamble. Proven final third quality is far more likely to be 20m plus than proven centre mid quality; another reason to keep Gerrard in a more attacking role - why take two gambles? But leaving Gerrard alone to link shouldn't be an option either. Again, three centre mids offers liberation to have two behind rather than just one. This season our 4231 which looked great last season has too often become 4411 or even 442 (again, see control and defending too deep) and is ugly and dysfunctional. Take the liberty, play 4321 or 433 and let those flanking or supporting Torres focus on that. There's an obsession, shared by Chelsea and United, to get lads behind the ball. Barcelona don't do that. Messi works but he often presses from the wrong side - once the ball goes past him he's happy to stay up and he keeps people back and if the ball comes back he presses again. Messi's brilliant so he needs watching. Dirk, Babel, Maxi and Yossi just aren't going to provoke the same concern from full backs and centre backs. Gerrard does. Another of him to do likewise would make a massive difference and allow them to interchange and hurt sides with intelligence and movement.

 

Jovanovic is supposed to be a player who can play off towards the left so he covers there for no transfer fee, Maxi's come in and looks a clever, clever footballer and looks reasonably priced. This makes all of Kuyt, Yossi and Babel vulnerable and I'd take the gamble given how tight money is. Yossi's the one I'd look to keep hold of if possible but nonetheless...

 

N'Gog should go and someone big and quick should come in. Doesn't have to be a worldbeater, just has to make the opposition worried about what could happen behind them.

 

Means looking like this:

 

Johnson -- xxxx1 -- Agger -- xxxx2

- Kelly - Carragher - The Greek -

 

------ Mascherano - xxxx3 -------

--------------- Lucas ----------------*

 

-------------- Aquilani ------------

---------------- xxxx4 -------------

 

--------- Gerrard ---- xxxx5 ----------

---------- Maxi ---- Jovanovic ------

 

---------------- Torres ---------------

----------------- xxxx6 ----------------

 

* I'd like another centre mid, but...

 

Youngsters such as Nemeth, Pacheco and Ayala can come in.

 

We've a fighting chance. With the right additions - mostly tall ones, if xxxxs 1-3 are all six footers then we can pick a minimum of nine six footers in our first eleven - we can be solid but have more quality in the first eleven. These players who have featured for the first team to go:

 

Cavilari, Degen, Skrtel, Aurelio, Insua, Spearing, Plessis, (Lucas if the price is right), Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun (maybe, depends on price), Riera and N'Gog.

 

The money therefore might stretch to a very good centre back, someone with the potential to be very good to be alongside Gerrard, a good centre mid who can put it about and solidity elsewhere. I'd try and tempt Riquelme to cover Aquilani. But everyone will slaughter that. So get Gary Mac out of retirement.

 

Lastly, I don't think the manager is miles away from something like this. When he buys Aquilani he knows he's not buying Alonso. He said as much. He's always been about a high line and pressing. Question mark is if he'd let three stay ahead of the ball. Having said that, three ahead of the ball may be a luxury too far in this league. Getting out and getting control have to be the priorities. If we do that, the rest should come.

 

feck me!!! what breakfast did you have to come out with that????

 

think i will answer to yr post after dinner and a shower...feeling pissed after downing a whole bottle of Chateau something something MEDOC 2001..

 

[baz2107]

 

When we're at home we'd line-up:

 

Reina

Johnson NewCB Agger Insua

Maxi NewCM Gerrard Yossi

NewCF Torres

 

 

When we're away we'd line-up:

 

Reina

Johnson Skrtel NewCB Agger

Yossi Masch NewCM Gerrard

NewCF Torres

 

 

 

Problem there is the only width comes from the full backs, Johnson and Maxi I don't see as too much of a problem, Insua/Agger more so, if you're having either of them at full back you need a left sided player to stay wide as Insua can't cross well, and Agger isn't a natural left back

[Hassony]

I'd like to see Scott Parker in there as xxxx3 and not just because he has had a good season, he is consistant, good at defending, passing, shooting and works hard for his teams.

 

how many goals does he score a season? 2?

[honourablegeorge]

Sell Kuyt, Babel and Yossi - thirty million quid, being optimistic. Being more optimistic, you could say that Shelvey might be xxx3 in time, and maybe Wilson xxx1, but they'd be behind Carragher and Lucas respectively for the foreseeable.

 

Then what? Thirty million for a striker, left back, midfielder and pacy attacker isn't leaving much wriggle room - these players need to be better than Kuyt/Insua/Yossii (I assume they'll be better than Babel, by Default). Even an improvement on Ngog will cost plenty.

Edited May 13, 2010 by honourablegeorge

[fred milne]

Problem there is the only width comes from the full backs, Johnson and Maxi I don't see as too much of a problem, Insua/Agger more so, if you're having either of them at full back you need a left sided player to stay wide as Insua can't cross well, and Agger isn't a natural left back

I'd say Insua overlaps capably enough. The question marks are over the defensive side to his game.

 

Agger at LB away from home is a case of making ends meet in the short-term.

[Siang]

Sell Kuyt, Babel and Yossi - thirty million quid, being optimistic. Being more optimistic, you could say that Shelvey might be xxx3 in time, and maybe Wilson xxx1, but they'd be behind Carragher and Lucas respectively for the foreseeable.

 

Then what? Thirty million for a striker, left back, midfielder and pacy attacker isn't leaving much wriggle room.

 

apologies...ehhhhh, who is this Wilson by the way?

[honourablegeorge]

Young Rangers defender we're supposedly close to signing, for two million ish.

[Siang]

Young Rangers defender we're supposedly close to signing, for two million ish.

 

ahh...i remember now...isn't he a CB or am i mistaken again?

 

Thought we were in for a CB from Rangers..

[honourablegeorge]

CB, I think.

[Conrad]

on the assumption we keep our core of talented players together, including Gerrard-

 

1. we need to work out what Gerrard's best role is/will be over the next 1-3 seasons and having worked that out look at other areas

2. we need to add pace going forward - ideally in the form of a wide midfielder

3. we need to add an aerially dominant centre back, preferably a footballer - comfortable in possession

4. we need a better left back

5. we need better back up for Torres - this may be Jovanovic but I do not know enough about him

 

I don't know who these players would be but I like Turan, Hamsik, Banega and Martinez from what little I've seen of them, and Parker

 

Assuming a smallish transfer kitty, I would like to offload some/most of the following to address the above

 

aquilani - depending on where we think SG should play

lucas

babel

riera

benayoun - prefer to keep him as versatile option but realistically he is worth a few bob

degen

aurelio

insua

plessis

ngog

el zhar

skertl

cavalieri

[yellow jumper]

the other point about chelsea. is that they have absolutely fantastic options defensively. i think if you sort that side of things you're able to make up for a few shortcomings in other areas. defensive players tend to be cheaper too. the other thing about there regular midfield is it doesn't have a fantastic playmaker in it. they're all big, strong, technically proficient, but you don't get the sense any one of them is at the heart of making them tick in the way pirlo did for milan, xabi for us, fabregas for arsenal etc. deco and ballack probably have it in them. but they're both in and out. don't believe it's true of lampard either, really, for all his other strengths.

 

drenthe might be an option to replace aurelio. can play all down the left or in central midfield. hasn't played much for madrid this season so might be available at a reasonable price.

 

i'd look to sell insua if there were decent offers. and then maybe bring in another workmanlike defensive option at left back, an emanuel pogatetz or matthew killgallon type. EDIT: agger in that role makes more sense i suppose.

 

plus the killer centre back. ledley king with knees.

Edited May 13, 2010 by george lees

[Guest PaulMcC]

I'd buy a quick centre back who's good in the air. Play him with Carra or Agger. Rotate them 2 a bit.

 

Buy a quick, skilful left winger who has a footballing brain.

 

Get a centre forward.

 

Buy a solid left back.

 

Sell Degen, Cavalieri, Riera, El Zhar, Babel, San Jose, Yossi (just cos he's getting on a bit and would raise decent funds).

[Hassony]

I'd buy a quick centre back who's good in the air. Play him with Carra or Agger. Rotate them 2 a bit.

 

Buy a quick, skilful left winger who has a footballing brain.

 

Get a centre forward.

 

Buy a solid left back.

 

you should work as a scout for the club

[Stevie H]

plus the killer centre back. ledley king with knees.

 

danny gabbidon's on a free.

 

i'm loathe to get into these kind of constructive thinking debates until we have a scooby about the ownership and manager we're going to have next season. the point has already been made in this thread but given our situation we could be looking at selling players for far less than they're genuinely worth and that impacts what we have to re-invest. assuming we're actually allowed to re-invest money raised from sales.

[Knox_Harrington]

don't believe it's true of lampard either, really, for all his other strengths.

He plays the percentages and keeps things ticking over. If Aquilani can bring 75% of what Lampard brings and 75% of what Fabregas brings he'll be good enough. He doesn't have to be as good as either and what we've seen so far is a lad who can keep it ticking and probe. The more quality there is around him, the better he'll be.

 

danny gabbidon's on a free.

 

i'm loathe to get into these kind of constructive thinking debates until we have a scooby about the ownership and manager we're going to have next season. the point has already been made in this thread but given our situation we could be looking at selling players for far less than they're genuinely worth and that impacts what we have to re-invest. assuming we're actually allowed to re-invest money raised from sales.

Agree entirely in one sense but f*** me the misery's killing me.

[Stevie H]

Agree entirely in one sense but f*** me the misery's killing me.

yeah, fair point.

[Knox_Harrington]

Good post, but I think you need to identify options for xxxx1-6 to get full marks.

 

I'm not convinced that your plan works, because I'm not convinced you raise as much in sales as you need to spend on acquisitions.

xxxx1 - Shawcross, Kjaer

xxxx2 - Herman Hreidderson ten years ago. Someone 6' who knows left back. This shouldn't be that hard.

xxxx3 - Be happy with Parker. There may be better out there. The much discussed Martinez. Momo. Ballack.

xxxx4 - Riquelme.

xxxx5 - Turan. Maybe someone who is more of a forward dropping deeper than a midfielder pushed on. Tevez if he becomes available. You can make a case for Belloggs but I'm not going to. Someone like that.

xxxx6 - There's talk of that lad from Ajax on a free whose name begins with 'P'. He's 6'. Does he have pace? Would I know? I'd have someone Kenwynian if not actually Kenwyne. I'd have Usain Bolt.