Was this expected by those who know?

[growler]

I don't want this to be another Rafa/owner/player bash thread, as we have enough of those.

 

Given the situation since Rafa's new contract and the start of this, should we have expected to write off this season? We were blinded by a 2nd finish last season and some great efforts but on the flip side:

 

Changes to the coaches

Changes to the management

Changes to the reserves

Changes in the youth

Core players (Alonso, Hyppia) leave

Core player signed but unavailable

Mental pressure

 

It just seems that maybe we were so blinkered by last season and caught up in the 'next season' syndrome we missed so much of the change.

 

I remember the mancs went through something similar, but came through a lot stronger.

 

It just seems to me, that it makes sense to write off this season as an 'adjustment' one and work on the longer term objectives.

 

I think its crazy to trust Rafa last season after 4 years of continued improvement and offer a new contract and then 6 months in, get rid! we have just revamped the whole club, so I wouldthink we need to give it at least next season too to show fruits.

 

Not to blow my trumpet, but I am in senior management, and sometimes you have a different perspective on the situation and it seems like we were so caught up in what happened last season, we forgot to see what was right in front of us.

 

It seems unfair that we say the club is ours and we want the owners out for the long term benefit of the club, yet want instant success from the manager.

 

Its like asking car makers to build a new better, safer, faster, car and then complaining that the features are not being put in the current model immediately.

[Cobs]

 

 

Its like asking car makers to build a new better, safer, faster, car and then complaining that the features are not being put in the current model immediately.

 

 

there's another one

[Rimbeux]

I dont think many of your change parameters should have any bearing on the first team and probably dont.

 

The only thing you could hang it on would be Rafa wearing too many hats, hats he's never before worn in his professional career, remember he was in charge of training the first team and not much else previously, transfers, scouting, youth development etc were others responsibility. He was maxing out his working day before the changes he initiated, he's never before held so much responsibility.

 

One other thing that worries me, and you'll be aware of this, is the danger of managers living on and living with far too much detail and complexity and pushing that down the chain to the workers, when their main task should be to keep it as simple as possible and as easy as possible for their people to deliver.

[Frosty Jack]

I dont think many of your change parameters should have any bearing on the first team and probably dont.

 

The only thing you could hang it on would be Rafa wearing too many hats, hats he's never before worn in his professional career, remember he was in charge of training the first team and not much else previously, transfers, scouting, youth development etc were others responsibility. He was maxing out his working day before the changes he initiated, he's never before held so much responsibility.

 

One other thing that worries me, and you'll be aware of this, is the danger of managers living on and living with far too much detail and complexity and pushing that down the chain to the workers, when their main task should be to keep it as simple as possible and as easy as possible for their people to deliver.

 

agree with that besides the bit in bold. if we can lament the loss of Pako, we can assume the summers changes to the coaching and medical staff have contributed greatly to our loss of form this season. it's the most obvious answer we have to it.

[Bailo]

there's another one

Your compendium of metaphors must be quite large by now, no?

[Cobs]

Your compendium of metaphors must be quite large by now, no?

 

my year off hasn't helped, but it's building up again now

[Rimbeux]

agree with that besides the bit in bold. if we can lament the loss of Pako, we can assume the summers changes to the coaching and medical staff have contributed greatly to our loss of form this season. it's the most obvious answer we have to it.

 

 

But you could equally draw a parallel to Pako (and others) leaving the year before, Sammy coming in and us going to new league highs with this group. Honestly I think there are any number of co-incidences and suchlike you could chase for reasons why that are probably incidental, but it really comes back to results and performances and those directly responsible for them.

[Frosty Jack]

I dont think many of your change parameters should have any bearing on the first team and probably dont.

 

The only thing you could hang it on would be Rafa wearing too many hats, hats he's never before worn in his professional career, remember he was in charge of training the first team and not much else previously, transfers, scouting, youth development etc were others responsibility. He was maxing out his working day before the changes he initiated, he's never before held so much responsibility.

 

One other thing that worries me, and you'll be aware of this, is the danger of managers living on and living with far too much detail and complexity and pushing that down the chain to the workers, when their main task should be to keep it as simple as possible and as easy as possible for their people to deliver.

 

agree with that besides the bit in bold. if we can lament the loss of Pako, we can assume the summers changes to the coaching and medical staff have contributed greatly to our loss of form this season. it's the most obvious answer we have to it.

[Rimbeux]

agree with that besides the bit in bold. if we can lament the loss of Pako, we can assume the summers changes to the coaching and medical staff have contributed greatly to our loss of form this season. it's the most obvious answer we have to it.

 

 

 

But you could equally draw a parallel to Pako (and others) leaving the year before, Sammy coming in and us going to new league highs with this group. Honestly I think there are any number of co-incidences and suchlike you could chase for reasons why that are probably incidental, but it really comes back to results and performances and those directly responsible for them.

[Gunga Din]

agree with that besides the bit in bold. if we can lament the loss of Pako, we can assume the summers changes to the coaching and medical staff have contributed greatly to our loss of form this season. it's the most obvious answer we have to it.

 

there is no way the players we have are so fragile mentally, that they lose the ability to run, pass a football, shoot, head a ball or indeed put a shift in on the football pitch. i'm sorry, but it doesnt.

 

the difference between success and failure though is a hairs breadth. we are 12 points behind, yet have probably lost a minimum of 8 points with stupid individual defensive errors because we cant defend a set piece or a cross ball. now er can analyse this all day and all night, but the bottom line, has we not spent the entire season playing with the breaks on, i think we would have another minimum of 6 points, still be in the title race, and still be in the champions league. It is up to the manager to get the team playing well, to instill a belief in the players and get the best from them. Rafa, no matter what way you look at this, seems to have lost the ability to do both, and the only quesstions that need answering are

 

1. can he get the players playing to their potential again

 

and

 

2. do the players still believe in Rafa.

 

they are both linked, and right now i dont think anyone can genuinely say yes to both those questions, and if they can, then the players rafa has bought are, to a man, not good enough to play for us.

[Frosty Jack]

But you could equally draw a parallel to Pako (and others) leaving the year before, Sammy coming in and us going to new league highs with this group.

 

More changes to the staff this summer than ever before.

 

Honestly I think there are any number of co-incidences and suchlike you could chase for reasons why that are probably incidental, but it really comes back to results and performances and those directly responsible for them.

 

So just the players then?

 

How can changes to coaching staff and loss of form be coincidence? for example when pako left and we started to deteriorate in late 07, was that also a coincidence? If we changed manager and improved or worsened our performances would that be coincidence?

 

1. can he get the players playing to their potential again

 

and

 

2. do the players still believe in Rafa.

 

they are both linked, and right now i dont think anyone can genuinely say yes to both those questions, and if they can, then the players rafa has bought are, to a man, not good enough to play for us.

 

I'm not convinced of either anymore unfortunately. but at the same time, some are saying we should be doing better with this squad, and a top manager could make something with minimal recruitment, while also accusing the manager of filling the squad with bad signings.

 

I'd hope the former was true, and looking at our squad on paper, it would seem that way, which should ironically vindicate Benitez on the transfer front, maybe once he's gone.

[pipnasty]

I certainly didn't expect to write this season off so soon but I did have serious concerns about our ability to defend this season. I always though that losing Arbeloa, Alonso and Hyypia in one fell swoop would be a difficult hurdle to get over. I thought that the 4-4 with Arsenal last season may have been a sign of things to come. I thought we may have been able to compensate this by outscoring teams but the problem with this is that it is not the Rafa way of playing. Rafa was doing his nut in against Arsenal and it is pretty clear to see why. All of Liverpool's great sides have tried to control matches and Rafa's team is no different. So, I went into this season feeling a little uncomfortable.

 

I also held the theory that coming a close 2nd in a Title run in would do the players the world of good for the following season as they would have experience of going the full distance and would be even hungrier. For whatever complex reasons there are, this doesn't appear to have been the case and it seemed to have negatively affected us.

[Gunga Din]

there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that we shouldnt be doing a lot better with the squad we have. 6 wins in 21 games over a 3 month period. i'm sorry, but you'd be a long time searching the annals of our history to find a worse run than that. its hard to fathom how badly we are underperforming. a few of us were saying earloer in the season, Earl, Mike, DH, myself, that this was something more than just a blip, and unfortunately it looks like we were right. its absolutely heartbreaking watching this season unfold. Rafa has aged about 10 years this season, and i genuinely have an affection for him that i havent had for a manager since Kenny was here.

 

I think Neg, you have now arrived at the place myself and a few others arrived at a few weeks ago, and it is just a horrible place to be

[Rimbeux]

More changes to the staff this summer than ever before.

 

 

 

So just the players then?

 

How can changes to coaching staff and loss of form be coincidence? for example when pako left and we started to deteriorate in late 07, was that also a coincidence? If we changed manager and improved or worsened our performances would that be coincidence?

 

More changes, but most of them not connected to the first team and mostly to the reserves and the academy.

 

We'd also changed half a dozen players summer 2007, things picked up significantly in 2008 later in that season, bedding in? As I've said, Sammy Lee came in after Pako and we went to achieve the best we've done with this group, better than we managed whilst Pako was here and some are calling for another change in the coaches as a possible cure to the current ills, is Sammy key to the upturn, key to the downturn or both?

 

The point is that there are endless parameters that change and this not being an exact science with tons of data, it's very difficult to find fundamental logical reasons why a group can go from good to bad or bad to good, whilst on the surface doing or trying to do more or less the same things, that's why there is a man in charge who is responsible and accountable for the performance of the group. Every man involved would probably give you a different set of reasons for this season, very few would point at themselves as an individual and you'd be a loss to find one or two things to pin-point.

 

Things change for intangible reasons, attitudes change, emotions change, reactions, relationships, chemistry change, sometimes it gets better, sometimes it fall apart.

[Tones]

there is no way the players we have are so fragile mentally, that they lose the ability to run, pass a football, shoot, head a ball or indeed put a shift in on the football pitch. i'm sorry, but it doesnt.

 

 

Its a mystery why they have become so bad. Theres no way Rafas management could have turned them into such bad footballers after improving them over the years. In fact if we had no manager at the club at all, and just sent 11 players onto the pitch to play, i would still expect a lot better than what we have got lately.

[Eskimo]

Its a mystery why they have become so bad. Theres no way Rafas management could have turned them into such bad footballers after improving them over the years. In fact if we had no manager at the club at all, and just sent 11 players onto the pitch to play, i would still expect a lot better than what we have got lately.

 

You would think...

[Gunga Din]

You would think...

 

you blaming Rafa now?

[Eskimo]

you blaming Rafa now?

 

He has his part to play in the mess we find ourselves in for sure, but for now I'm sticking. I just thought that t1971 made a valid point..

[Gunga Din]

He has his part to play in the mess we find ourselves in for sure, but for now I'm sticking. I just thought that t1971 made a valid point..

 

thats a major turnaround for you, especially since you have been having a go at me constantly over the past few months for something you now seem to agree with

[Rimbeux]

Its a mystery why they have become so bad. Theres no way Rafas management could have turned them into such bad footballers after improving them over the years. In fact if we had no manager at the club at all, and just sent 11 players onto the pitch to play, i would still expect a lot better than what we have got lately.

 

It doesn't even take much cod-analysis or experience or logic to come to a conclusion that methods can stop working and very quickly once people stop believing in them. The debate imo is if that has happened here.

[Eskimo]

thats a major turnaround for you, especially since you have been having a go at me constantly over the past few months for something you now seem to agree with

 

Turnaround?? I like the man and want him to succeed (partly cos he's Spanish ) but yeah he frustrates me with some of his decisions. However, with all the other s*** thats going on I can't, no refuse to lay it all on his plate like some are doing.

 

As for constantly having a go, fecking drama queen

[Greenoak]

Growler the problem is Rafa is in a results based business. He craved and fought for extra responsibility. He got what he wanted.

 

If I was the boss of a chain of shops and pushed to manage a bigger part of that chain of shops and then the profits of that chain of shops nosedives, customer complaints soar, and all the bosses care about is the profits, the bosses would not let the chain stagnant on the HOPE that the man in charge can deliver, esp when he has never had the roles before and no proven experience of those roles.

 

Added to this is the mountain of debt the business has to incur and the risk of bankruptcy in doing nothing, and losing 30% of our income.

 

I know my bosses would fire me if I was failing as much as Rafa has failed this year, with no sign of things being a blip.

[Damian_de]

 

1. can he get the players playing to their potential again

 

and

 

2. do the players still believe in Rafa.

 

they are both linked, and right now i dont think anyone can genuinely say yes to both those questions, and if they can, then the players rafa has bought are, to a man, not good enough to play for us.

 

I can't offer you any evidence that you would consider categorical, but genuinely i think yes.

[Flanders]

Its like asking car makers to build a new better, safer, faster, car and then complaining that the features are not being put in the current model immediately.

You might be in 'senior management' but that doesn't guarantee common sense, far from it.

The current model takes the old model and improves it, doesn't it? OK, maybe it's lost a few features because it's enviromentally friendly and it's not as fast as last years yet, it will be soon though.

Part of that process doesn't need the Mondeo to turn into a Cortina though.

[pipnasty]

It doesn't even take much cod-analysis or experience or logic to come to a conclusion that methods can stop working and very quickly once people stop believing in them. The debate imo is if that has happened here.

 

 

If it has happened, and I'm not convinced it has, I still think the process would have started in the summer as we were bad from day one. And I just can't see any of the players deciding (even on a subconcious level) that after finishing 2nd the year before, it was the manager who was the problem. It wasn't that long ago that Gerrard called him one of the two best managers in the world along with Capello.

 

And if it did happen during the early part of the season (I think you mentioned Sunderland previously) I think it is far fetched to think that the players stopped believing in Rafa due to him not being able to get them out of the funk they had originally gotten themselves into, if indeed they started the season sulking over the summers activities.

 

I'm not sure the players believe in themselves anymore but do agree that it is Rafa's responsibility to get them out of this and, currently, he is failing.