last night proves: keep Xabi...we threw this year's league...

[Chewie]

ok, first and foremost last night proved that we need to keep Alonso. We MUST keep Alonso. The reason why Chelsea and Liverpool have both played well against Barca in the past two years is because of the ability of both sides to dominate the middle - for Alonso, Masch, Gerrard read Ballack, Essien, Lampard (yeah we can all debate who is the best yadayada...). United have consistently struggled this year against quality sides who can actually out play them in the middle. Yes they have such potent attacking ability that they are able to destroy most weaker teams, but when they get out-played tactically by teams that have also got better quality players to match up to their attacking qualities they routinely come up short...

 

I'll never forget in France 98 before the tournament Wenger said he thought France would win as they had the best midfield - it is why it must be so glaring for Arsenal fans to see how weak they are in the middle now... but in that game last night Iniesta and Xavi, with Messi in front of them just completely ran the show... I honestly do not think they would have done so against us. I'm not saying that they would not have beaten us, simply that they would not have been able to execute their own game plan as well as they did when faced with Carrick, Anderson and Giggs... With the 3 that Barca had in there they could have played Heskey up front and still have won (this is not said tongue in cheek - this is said as an acknowledgement to what Capello has also demonstrated with England - win the middle and you do not need the world's greatest striker to win the game...)

 

at this level we need Alonso and Masch and Gerrard - and probably for strength in depth Barry as well. Last night above all else proved that to lose Alonso would be a travesty unless he is replaced with a player of similar quality...

 

anyway - on to the tired argument about this years league. I for one subscribe to the theory that the league table never lies. Domestically the team best equipped to win the Premier league won the premier league. United were the team best equipped to win the premier league this season because their strength and quality is in their ability to name 4-6 matchwinners in most games they play (starting or on the subs bench). I have said in another thread that this league will always reward the team that wins the most games. Forget the match-ups between the big teams, forget the goal difference etc... to repeat from another discussion - if we went through a season like this

 

28 wins at 1-0

4 defeates at 5-0 (to United and Chelsea both times)

6 draws at 5-5 !!! (good games eh!)

 

we would have 90 points, a goal difference of +8 and a terrible record against the big clubs... but we would be champions...

 

that is why United were the team best equipped to win this league, this year... even though I actually do not think they were the best team. The balance of our team and of Chelsea's team is better and stronger in the middle. In fact, given that Chelsea shanged manager, are in the FA cup final and were one dodgy referee away from the Champions league final I think they have a strong case to argue they have had an exceptional season...

 

for all that however, I think this league was ours to win and we blew it. In the end United deserved to win it as they won the most games, but either a little more quality in terms of personnel or in terms of tactics and attitude in the middle part of this season would have seen us romp home. My hope is that our attitude and swagger in the latter half of this season will carry through to next and that we will go all out to add serious attacking quality to the 4 players who play in front of the axis of Masch and Alonso....

 

end of year analysis over... now - who are we signing

 

Chewie

[Ramón Benítez Hernández]

who are we signing

 

Someone to replace Alonso.

[Knox_Harrington]

but either a little more quality in terms of personnel or in terms of tactics and attitude in the middle part of this season would have seen us romp home.

We didn't blow it. We didn't have enough good players going forward to be able to play at the level required for ten months.

[Knox_Harrington]

Additional: United have won three consecutive championships and made two consecutive European Cup Finals without a great central midfield. They've devalued centre mid in my eyes but simultaneously have been as successful as they ever have in their history in the two most important competitions.

[Ramón Benítez Hernández]

We didn't have enough good players going forward to be able to play at the level required for ten months.

 

Agreed. It is as simple as that.

[Paddy T.]

Just to sound really wise, if we had lost both matches against Manure they would have had 6 points more themselves which would have given them 96 points.

[Chewie]

We didn't blow it. We didn't have enough good players going forward to be able to play at the level required for ten months.

 

not disagreeing with you at all - actually think I made that point in the line you chose to quote - i.e. a little bit more quality either in terms of personnel or in attitude...

 

the point of my whole post was that they are the team 'best equipped' to win the premier league and so they deserved to for precisely the reason you mention. They have also, I agree, been astonishingly successful in recent seasons - but let's not forget that they were one John Terry slip away from not winning last year's game and the woodwork and 2 corners away from not winning in 99 either... at this level, in big games United seem to get out-played more than they seem to dominate. In the 30 games a year they get against the bottom 16 in the Premier league they are devastating and a class apart (hence the 4-6 matchwinners tribute...)

 

I don't want to get into the habit of making excuses for why they won and we didn't. I think it betrays the winning mentality and ruthlessness needed to actually be champions. They won, we didn't. end of. But when I think of the likes of our games against Spurs and Stoke I think to myself - boy we should have won it this year - even with them having greater strength in depth. This was a real chance and we missed it (maybe that's better than saying we blew it). I hope that we are on the up and that over the summer they lose Tevez, Ronaldo, keep Berbatov and that Giggs, Scholes, Neville, continue to stay longer in Slur Alex's affections than they should in his teamsheet...

 

our most critical signing this summer will be whoever we sign to provide more creativity / goals to this team.

 

Chewie

[fred milne]

Additional: United have won three consecutive championships and made two consecutive European Cup Finals without a great central midfield. They've devalued centre mid in my eyes but simultaneously have been as successful as they ever have in their history in the two most important competitions.

Carrick was lost without Scholes out there. He lacks the personality to impose himself on games at the highest level.

 

Time and again last night, the centre-backs were looking for him to show for the ball but he was hiding.

[Knox_Harrington]

not disagreeing with you at all - actually think I made that point in the line you chose to quote - i.e. a little bit more quality either in terms of personnel or in attitude...

What do you mean by "attitude"?

[Knox_Harrington]

Carrick was lost without Scholes out there. He lacks the personality to impose himself on games at the highest level.

 

Time and again last night, the centre-backs were looking for him to show for the ball but he was hiding.

Xabi may have got overrun as well but he'd have taken responsibility for what was going on around him.

[Flanders]

Carrick was lost without Scholes out there. He lacks the personality to impose himself on games at the highest level.

 

Time and again last night, the centre-backs were looking for him to show for the ball but he was hiding.

They will be stronger next season with Hargreaves back. Assuming he can get back to previous best form he was exactly they player they were missing last night.

All of the talk about them not signing Tevez because they need the money for a midfielder depends largely on Hargreaves fitness. If he can comeback and enable them to keep Tevez, they will be stronger next season.

[MarkD]

Just posted this in the Genny re; Carrick but think it makes the point about Alonso too;

 

Carrick is a good PL player - not great but solid. Can keep a move going forward if given time but never dominates and last night revealed the biggest difference between him and Alonso to me.

 

On a number of occasions, Carrick had the opportunity to pass using his left foot to United's left sided player (Evra or Rooney) who were in space given that Puyol took an eternity to return from going forward.

 

The ball was one that should have been reasonably easy but was made more diffciult by having to do it with an opponent coming in. It meant control and move the ball quickly and accurately - he failed on all the occasions.

The ball was shanked everytime and hooked toward the keeper (i.e. away from the intended recipient) thus his strength (passing) became his weakness.

 

Alonso has the ability to make that extra bit of time to either complete the pass successfully or take another option and thus retain possession.

 

It shows that growing up in a league that values ball retention and the role of a true central playmaker really does stand out when pitted against a more workmanlike player.

[fred milne]

They will be stronger next season with Hargreaves back.

I'd still take Xabi/Masch over Carrick/Hargreaves.

[Swipe]

Few Mancs are not too convinced Hargreaves will ever get back to full fitness.

[Flanders]

I'd still take Xabi/Masch over Carrick/Hargreaves.

Yep.

Barry/Masch would only slightly edge it though.....

[Raj]

Few Mancs are not too convinced Hargreaves will ever get back to full fitness.

 

I'm not that convinced either.

[Dan]

Xabi may have got overrun as well but he'd have taken responsibility for what was going on around him.

 

Very rarely happens

[fyds]

Carrick was lost without Scholes out there. He lacks the personality to impose himself on games at the highest level.

 

Time and again last night, the centre-backs were looking for him to show for the ball but he was hiding.

It's not personality - this is where the famed 'football brain' or just any intelligent, quick-thinking brain comes in - to be domonant in midfield you need players with quick feet, a good touch and passing brain, good tackling, but most of all a good and decisive mind that knows when to employ what, to what effect and how. Carrick has many of the attributes above but looks and comes over as thick as mince - unlike Alonso, Gerrard, Masch, Lucas, Fabregas, Essien and even the lesser skilled Lucas and Hargreaves.

 

Intelligence - in game and general - in a gifted footballer is priceless...triply so if they are a bespoke midfielder.

[Coyler]

This latest nonsense that Juventus are supposed to be back in for him again has calmed me down about the situation.

[kop205]

They will be stronger next season with Hargreaves back. Assuming he can get back to previous best form he was exactly they player they were missing last night.

All of the talk about them not signing Tevez because they need the money for a midfielder depends largely on Hargreaves fitness. If he can comeback and enable them to keep Tevez, they will be stronger next season.

 

Fletcher was one of their players of the season this year so although they probably did miss him last night, they haven't been missing that type for the rest of the season so I don't see Hargreaves making much difference.

 

He is a crock anyway.

[fyds]

Fletcher was one of their players of the season this year so although they probably did miss him last night, they haven't been missing that type for the rest of the season so I don't see Hargreaves making much difference.

 

He is a crock anyway.

I think the lad's legs are done - shame as he seems a decent kid.

[smithdown]

Carrick was lost without Scholes out there. He lacks the personality to impose himself on games at the highest level.

 

Time and again last night, the centre-backs were looking for him to show for the ball but he was hiding.

 

Carrick couldn't find his tem-mates all night when he did have it. Half a dozen long diagonals that went out of play.

[kop205]

Carrick was lost without Scholes out there. He lacks the personality to impose himself on games at the highest level.

 

That is my fear about Barry as well in truth and why I agree with the basic premise of the thread - keep Xabi.

 

I think Barry is as good as anything they have in midfield. I think all of them are a cut below Xabi.

[Swipe]

Barry's got more b****x than Carrick though. Is far more willing to put himself about.

[Chewie]

What do you mean by "attitude"?

 

simply that I do believe (and I hope I haven't been caught up into a misperception by the pundits) that Rafa is prepared to take a point rather than risking losing one to gain 3... I think this is gone now, but I also believe perhaps this is gone because the players now believe in themselves to swat teams aside. The belief and 'attitude' we will have taken from this run in must be bottled and used from the off next year. I know we will go through lulls and that in some games (Spurs away for eg...) we will tonk teams and get nothing for it... but hope we start with the belief that now seems to be in the team...

 

I appreciate I may be wrong here and that the perception may be way off beam or that it really is a personnel issue (which I think we both agree on) and that we were trying really hard but just didn't have the players to execute it... think Rafa is changing too though (once again backed up by having the players he needs in the right positions....swings and roundabouts eh... jumpers for goalposts...)

 

Chewie