Fagan

no offence but that is a v naive statement. his lawyers do that and they are paid to look after his interests not the clubs. get with the real commercial world. football is a business

i think sometimes players owe the fans some loyalty, particularly local players and local fans

I think thats a nice sentiment but its not the reality. I think in the modern game you need to see players as sole traders. they want, and are entitled to, in my opinion, some personal glory and silverware in their careers. Obviously, before everyone flips out, Stevie has won everything at Liverpool bar a league title. But I always get the impression from him that the league title is the most important to him and he'd like to win one, wherever it may be before he retires.

i totally agree, and therein lies the real tragedy. to have gerrard, torres, masch and reina as a spine is an absolute privilege and to see it go to waste (if it does) will be absolutely criminal and an unmitigated tragedy. Im sure stevie would love to stay, and to be honest i think he will, but as you say if he does go my point above stands

yes and your point is? nobody on here is going to say liverpool isnt a great club. Rafa being a great manager is open to debate obviously but nevertheless we still have a very substandard squad compared with all of our nearest rivals.

I agree. he has just turned 30. Good luck to him. Whilst he has undoubtedly been one of the greatest players in the history of the club. Without him over the last 10 years, I shudder to think where we'd be. He deserves better than having to run around with the likes of El Zhar, Degan, babel, Insua and N'gog hoping tpo finish 4th at this stage in his career. Who could blame him for joining a great club with class players, cash to spend and a class manager. Imagine a midfield and attacking 6 of Xavi Alonso, Diarra, Gerrard, Ronaldo, Kaka and Higuain as opposed to Lucas, Dirk, Yossi etc.

so slagging Rafa off by calling him a spanish **at is not exactly the best way of doing it, but it nevertheless shows a genuine degree of frustration at rafa. but your response to me is not better to be honest with you. and if your only issue is the way in which people criticise rafa and the language they use, then that is different from criticising peole for wanting rafa out. so you need to decide which bothers you most.

I'm very much a lurker and observer on this site, despite being on it for years. But i had to post something in relation to this. I cannot get my head around the abuse certain people get on here for giving Rafa a bashing. Are people so blinkered that they completely ignore the profound fall from grace we have endured this season. How our squad seem actually worse than they were last season? that they feel the best way to support the team is to give unconditional love to Rafa, despite the horrendous style of football we are playing every week and the embarrassing manner of our defeats? its got to the stage now where Rafa supporters have now become de facto apologists. if you want to support Rafa fine, I love Rafa too, but i've been supporting this club long enought to know that you cant ignore the alarmingly obvious signals that we need a change in manager. Its just not working for him, for whatever reasons that are and are not within his control. in any event, calling people moaners, whingers etc... for criticising the manager, is totally counterproductive and shortsighted. and if certain people have been saying Rafa is not the right man for a long time, then is it not the case that they are now proven right? Its only in the latter part of this season that my support for rafa diminished but to those who say they saw this coming a long way off, then I have no other option but to say fair enough, you were right.

post match quote from rafa: ""The fans are amazing. If I decide to stay here it will be because of the fans. I will keep going. Sometimes you have bad moments and now is the time when we have to show character." very interesting. sounds like he may have the door ajar

I cant agree with most of this really. what exactly is moronic about our fans and ex players seething at the current state of the teams performances and league position, being out of the FA cup and CL at the start of January? if anything, not to be seething about it is moronic and raises serious questions about whether you have the correct expectations for the team. I believe that at this stage, rafa should probably go, and will go during the summer. Its clear our squad is not good enough and can not compete with the other 'top 3' tihs season. last season it more than competed but something is rotten in anfield. The players are not responding to rafa. and unfortunately whether its their fault or rafa's fault, it will always be the manager who will have to fall on his sword or be made walk the plank. if he does go, I will be gutted, just like I was when Ged left. I love the man but things are not going to his plan and it seems we are going backwards rather than forwards. i certainly do not agree that if rafa goes we will become a mid table team! there is no basis or logic for that at all. Just look at what a new manager can bring to a team. Rafa, won the CL with Houllier's bunch of misfits! thats what a new manager can do to a team who have underperformed under an old regime. a new manager, like hiddink or Mourinho would provide a massive injection into the dressing room and on the pitch and would give us the chance to wipoe the slate clean, get rid of some of the sh*te that is currently in our 1st team and squad and start motoring forward again.

Out if the league, CL and FA cup by jan 13th is a disgrace no matter who you blame. Anyone who is blaming the players is probably right but it is without a doubt that they are not responding to the manager and he has to go. That being said, I witnessed some of the most spineless and gutless efforts from the majority of our team tonight and that is 90% down to the individuals. They should be ashamed if themselves. A new manager might save our season even with that bunch of spineless pr**ks

I agree that heskey is rubbish. for a big lad hes terribly soft and as a striker he scores f*** all goals! he make a nuisance of himself thats about it. he was not good enough under Houllier ina team that is far inferior to our current squad, therefore hes no way near good enough for us now

http://www.ynwa.tv/forum/index.php?showtop...98&hl=fagan

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Rick, is that you?

ah yes, Liverpool would leave Trezeguet to get a black cab and wouldnt send a car for him.

There are alleged sightings of West Ham striker Carlton Cole at Liverpool's training ground http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8227622.stm

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