The wisdom of signing small ?

[David Hodgson]

Debate has raged for ages about the merits of having a policy of going for cheap unpolished gems, rather than falling for the CM trap of looking to sign BIg NAmes.

 

Where Rafa's concerned, I'm begining to think he needs to stay away from the 'bargains', or even mid-level buys. His track record of adding value to cheap signings is not good at LFC. We have lost, or would lose money, or do well to break even on the following Rafa buys : Nunez, Josemi, Gonzalez, Paletta, that big old useless Argentianian centre-half whose name escapes me, Kromkamp, Arbelloa, and Morientes (although he wasn't even that cheap).

 

We'd get our money back on the likes of Garcia, Kuyt and Pennant and we'd make a fair bit on Sissoko, Alonso, Agger and Crouch.

 

This represents a fairly modest transfer market track record by Rafa, but suggests he does better when he spends more. To a degree, this is bleedin' obvious, but every time there's a campaign to 'spend big' it's countered by examples of big signings that don't work out (Veron, Shaun-Wright Phillips).

 

I've seen enough of Rafa's buying now to be firmly convinced that he should cocnentrate on buying proven quality rather than ' a whole bunch of crummy players'.

[Guest ziggystardust]

[psl]

So the more money we spend, the better the player?

[David Hodgson]

 

 

Well don't read it then dumb*ss.

[L19red]

Debate has raged for ages about the merits of having a policy of going for cheap unpolished gems, rather than falling for the CM trap of looking to sign BIg NAmes.

 

Where Rafa's concerned, I'm begining to think he needs to stay away from the 'bargains', or even mid-level buys. His track record of adding value to cheap signings is not good at LFC. We have lost, or would lose money, or do well to break even on the following Rafa buys : Nunez, Josemi, Gonzalez, Paletta, that big old useless Argentianian centre-half whose name escapes me, Kromkamp, Arbelloa, and Morientes (although he wasn't even that cheap).

 

We'd get our money back on the likes of Garcia, Kuyt and Pennant and we'd make a fair bit on Sissoko, Alonso, Agger and Crouch.

 

This represents a fairly modest transfer market track record by Rafa, but suggests he does better when he spends more. To a degree, this is bleedin' obvious, but every time there's a campaign to 'spend big' it's countered by examples of big signings that don't work out (Veron, Shaun-Wright Phillips).

 

I've seen enough of Rafa's buying now to be firmly convinced that he should cocnentrate on buying proven quality rather than ' a whole bunch of crummy players'.

he's working to a budget. if the budget changes he'll buy more quality

[David Hodgson]

So the more money we spend, the better the player?

 

Yeah, amazin' innit !?

 

Some people still haven't worked this one out though.

[David Hodgson]

he's working to a budget. if the budget changes he'll buy more quality

 

True to an extent, but there are managers (and Rafa can be one of them) who at times tend to bulk buy 'crap'.

[surf]

Not sure about the losing money bit on the small signings. If you add it all up i'm sure we'll break even. Not couting Morientes of course, who you could hardly call a small signing.

[CarraLegend]

Debate has raged for ages about the merits of having a policy of going for cheap unpolished gems, rather than falling for the CM trap of looking to sign BIg NAmes.

 

Where Rafa's concerned, I'm begining to think he needs to stay away from the 'bargains', or even mid-level buys. His track record of adding value to cheap signings is not good at LFC. We have lost, or would lose money, or do well to break even on the following Rafa buys : Nunez, Josemi, Gonzalez, Paletta, that big old useless Argentianian centre-half whose name escapes me, Kromkamp, Arbelloa, and Morientes (although he wasn't even that cheap).

 

We'd get our money back on the likes of Garcia, Kuyt and Pennant and we'd make a fair bit on Sissoko, Alonso, Agger and Crouch.

 

This represents a fairly modest transfer market track record by Rafa, but suggests he does better when he spends more. To a degree, this is bleedin' obvious, but every time there's a campaign to 'spend big' it's countered by examples of big signings that don't work out (Veron, Shaun-Wright Phillips).

 

I've seen enough of Rafa's buying now to be firmly convinced that he should cocnentrate on buying proven quality rather than ' a whole bunch of crummy players'.

 

So you think it'd be better if we sign expensive players rather than £2m players and that? WOW, cheers for that wonderful insight

 

Will your next piece be "A win at Villa Park on the opening day would be better than a draw"?

Edited June 30, 2007 by CarraLegend

[Guest ziggystardust]

True to an extent, but there are managers (and Rafa can be one of them) who at times tend to bulk buy 'crap'.

 

because its easy to build a squad isnt it - i cant believe your not the current manager - i wish you were boo boy

[Rory Fitzgerald]

I think there are a lot of mitigating factors especially with Nunez - he was like the free biscuits you get cellotaped to your packet of coffee in the supermarket.

 

I think Kromkamp was a good piece of short term business to get rid of Josemi (entirely agree there Dave) whilst I think Arbeloa has looked decent.

 

As far as Gonzalez and Morientes, hindsight is a great thing and I dont think many argued with their signings before hand especially given the way we were crying out for a left winger that would get chalk on his boots, it just didnt work out.

 

I also think there is the obvious direct link between price and quality with Wenger the complete exception to this rule.

 

For me Rafa's ruthlessness is one of his qualities, if his cheap signings are not working out then they are shipped out pretty swiftly.

 

Essentially I dont think its purely Rafa's fault, he has had a limited budget to spread around a squad that was short of the quality needed to get near Chelsea. This season we have the basics. The players you mention, Reina, Agger Sissoko, Alonso, Kuyt have complemented Carra, Gerrard, Finnan and we now have a solid back line with a strong midfield. We dont need loads of players but loads of quality up front and therefore I agree with your sentiment that we need to spend big on a few signings because we dont need to spread the cash around as much now

[IgPig]

I think there are a lot of mitigating factors especially with Nunez - he was like the free biscuits you get cellotaped to your packet of coffee in the supermarket.

 

That's a quality description of Nunez.

[Frosty Jack]

That's a quality description of Nunez.

 

didn't he admit he was s***e in his first interview or something? i seem to remember something like "i'm not very good but i try hard"

 

crucial consolation goal he scored for us though, changed the whole face of the game.

[Knox_Harrington]

It was a mistake to let Nunez leave. Intelligent player who held his position, was an excellent crosser of the ball, good in the air and worked hard.

 

On the more general point we did make our money back on Kronkamp and Josemi. And we are doing so on Gonzalez? I'm not convinced you need to spend a wedge on full backs. We got Finnan for only three and a half million and he could well be the best in the world in his position. We got Carson for a million quid and we'd expect to get four times that.

 

A squad needs mid-level players who have the capacity to improve. We can either grow our own or we can get them in (or we can get them in young and grow them) but even as squads become broader you aren't going to get 22 undoubted world-class talents.

 

The question mark over the manager in the transfer market has been his desire to go for weight of numbers for the first team squad rather than proven top level talent. Within the constraints of that choice I'd say he's been very shrewd - whether that choice was right, thinking of last summer specifically, is a different matter entirely. Regradless with or without the investment I'd have expected that to end this window.

[_00_deathscar]

Where Rafa's concerned, I'm begining to think he needs to stay away from the 'bargains', or even mid-level buys. His track record of adding value to cheap signings is not good at LFC. We have lost, or would lose money, or do well to break even on the following Rafa buys : Nunez, Josemi, Gonzalez, Paletta, that big old useless Argentianian centre-half whose name escapes me, Kromkamp, Arbelloa, and Morientes (although he wasn't even that cheap).

 

Let's see, where to start picking apart this post....

 

We made money on Nunez and Gonzalez (presumably).

 

We swapped Kromkamp for Josemi, then sold Kromkamp off for 3m and bought Arbeloa for 2.5m, so we're 500k up on that deal.

 

Morientes did turn out to be a flop, but s*** happens.

 

Pellegrino was brought in as a free who was about 810927 years old, kind of hard to make money on. Hasn't he retired anyway?

[dyl]

Well don't read it then dumb*ss.

Surely he has to read it in order to form an opinion?

[floyd the barber]

i`ll say this once again..

 

 

Pellegrino was an excellent free transfer.....it allowed Sami Hyypia to have a break throughout the season, which meant he was fit and ready for our champions league games, which had a huge say in the reason we won the champs league.

 

 

 

Thank you.

[Kite]

Debate has raged for ages about the merits of having a policy of going for cheap unpolished gems, rather than falling for the CM trap of looking to sign BIg NAmes.

 

Where Rafa's concerned, I'm begining to think he needs to stay away from the 'bargains', or even mid-level buys. His track record of adding value to cheap signings is not good at LFC. We have lost, or would lose money, or do well to break even on the following Rafa buys : Nunez, Josemi, Gonzalez, Paletta, that big old useless Argentianian centre-half whose name escapes me, Kromkamp, Arbelloa, and Morientes (although he wasn't even that cheap).

 

We'd get our money back on the likes of Garcia, Kuyt and Pennant and we'd make a fair bit on Sissoko, Alonso, Agger and Crouch.

 

This represents a fairly modest transfer market track record by Rafa, but suggests he does better when he spends more. To a degree, this is bleedin' obvious, but every time there's a campaign to 'spend big' it's countered by examples of big signings that don't work out (Veron, Shaun-Wright Phillips).

 

I've seen enough of Rafa's buying now to be firmly convinced that he should cocnentrate on buying proven quality rather than ' a whole bunch of crummy players'.

You've mentioned eight players that we would lose money on: one of whom we aren't selling as far as I'm aware. One we got for nothing. One we made money on. Another two we most likely will make money on when sold. Two that were part of swap deals. The only real money loser was Morientes, where we lost about three million.

 

Against that you've listed seven players that will either hold value or bring us a higher return. In fact, players like Agger and Sissoko would most likely bring very significant returns if sold.

 

So, essentially, because we lost money on one player, Morientes, Rafa should stop buying players like Agger and Sissoko? That's a barmy argument if ever one was posted here.

[David Hodgson]

So you think it'd be better if we sign expensive players rather than £2m players and that? WOW, cheers for that wonderful insight

 

Will your next piece be "A win at Villa Park on the opening day would be better than a draw"?

 

 

Reading not your strong suit is it bozo ?

 

Here's a little reminder of how I qualified my assertion :

 

'This represents a fairly modest transfer market track record by Rafa, but suggests he does better when he spends more. To a degree, this is bleedin' obvious, but every time there's a campaign to 'spend big' it's countered by examples of big signings that don't work out (Veron, Shaun-Wright Phillips).'

[David Hodgson]

Let's see, where to start picking apart this post....

 

We made money on Nunez and Gonzalez (presumably).

 

We swapped Kromkamp for Josemi, then sold Kromkamp off for 3m and bought Arbeloa for 2.5m, so we're 500k up on that deal.

 

Morientes did turn out to be a flop, but s*** happens.

 

Pellegrino was brought in as a free who was about 810927 years old, kind of hard to make money on. Hasn't he retired anyway?

 

Let's see where to start picking this apart :

 

We didn't make money on Nunez (though probably didn't lose) and by all accounts we're going to lose on Gonzalez. However, what's being missed is my point : Of course in buying 2-4m players you're never going to lose fortunes, but the number of games these type of players often get is limited. Maybe, and hindsight is a wonderful thing I'll admit, we would have been better off saving these accumulated 2-4ms and save up for a bigger better player ?

 

Maybe last summer, for example, we could not have bought Pennant and Gonzalez, and spent the money on a Simao or an Alves.

 

Just a thought. Not meant to be a character assasination on Rafa. F*cking hell, you'd think I'd called someone's Ma a wh*re.

[Guest ziggystardust]

Reading not your strong suit is it bozo ?

 

Here's a little reminder of how I qualified my assertion :

 

'This represents a fairly modest transfer market track record by Rafa, but suggests he does better when he spends more. To a degree, this is bleedin' obvious, but every time there's a campaign to 'spend big' it's countered by examples of big signings that don't work out (Veron, Shaun-Wright Phillips).'

 

 

bozo roflcopter. Do you sit in the main stand - row two near the away end -because the boo boy behind me reminds me of you.

 

Or are you one of the 1892 "clued up fans" that sit in the kop.

[David Hodgson]

You've mentioned eight players that we would lose money on: one of whom we aren't selling as far as I'm aware. One we got for nothing. One we made money on. Another two we most likely will make money on when sold. Two that were part of swap deals. The only real money loser was Morientes, where we lost about three million.

 

Against that you've listed seven players that will either hold value or bring us a higher return. In fact, players like Agger and Sissoko would most likely bring very significant returns if sold.

 

So, essentially, because we lost money on one player, Morientes, Rafa should stop buying players like Agger and Sissoko? That's a barmy argument if ever one was posted here.

 

Breaking even on players who cost that little isn't very difficult. Doesn't mean that cumulatively they aren't tying up resources. Interestingly we haven't really unearthed any 'gems' at this level of the transfer market.

 

Obviously within the constraints of a budget it seems prudent to be buying at this level. My point was, that perhaps it's a false economy.

 

NB this is not a topic designed to have a thinly veiled pop at the manager ( I am a massive Benitez fan).

[David Hodgson]

bozo roflcopter. Do you sit in the main stand - row two near the away end -because the boo boy behind me reminds me of you.

 

Or are you one of the 1892 "clued up fans" that sit in the kop.

 

Neither, and I'm no boo-boy.

 

Can't tell the difference between discussion and dissent, I notice. A problem for one or two others round here.

 

Ah well ....

[L19red]

to qulify my earlier comment, he's bought cheap partly becuase of budget constraints but partly because he was so pissed off with the reserves and A team setup so he didnt just have to concentrate on the first 11, but also adding some depth to the squad. Kronkamp josemi pellegrino zenden etc none of them were bought as first team regulars, but rather as squad players to give the real first teamers the odd day off. I'd hazard a guess that partly because he has been here 3 years now so has had time to develop squad depth, and partly because we have a bigger budget that there will be fewer of these players in future.

[Molby]

i`ll say this once again..

Pellegrino was an excellent free transfer.....it allowed Sami Hyypia to have a break throughout the season, which meant he was fit and ready for our champions league games, which had a huge say in the reason we won the champs league.

Thank you.