Saintslfc13

Explain. I agree with the SOS goal, I just don't agree with the idea of stripping our club of cash by blocking revenue. The shirt boycott is fine, but as you know not everyone has followed through with it. By going through with what you're suggesting you run the risk of the destroying the club you're trying to protect. I don't feel that i'm the one who needs to be educated if you can't realise that. Explain to me why producing a fan funded stadium and actually helping our club, Is any worse an idea than starving it of cash altogether other than the obvious difference in personal supporter cost? (If ShareLiverpoolFC can do it then surely SOS can, who knows since there being ignored it's members may just opt for this idea instead.) The SOS isn't going to get anywhere without money, and that's the bottom line. They need money and actions to make things work, as does any movement. In order to educate the number of fans necessary to go through with a boycott massive enough to make a dent and POSSIBLY scare them out of the club, there need to be SOS groups in various cities throughout the world. Is there a California chapter I don't know about? Are there SOS groups in spain? In Thailand and Japan? There are liverpool fans EVERYWHERE and where there are liverpool fans with money there needs to be SOS groups spreading the message. It just isn't feasible to spread the word enough to do the job effectively unless the SOS start recruiting people who live in other nations to spread the word. Keep in mind also that a lot people view the SOS as an ANTI-OOT organization. So why would out of town fans even consider supporting it? I'd be willing to bet there are quiet a few who more would love to come and watch the game live due to the new vacancies in the stands. There are probably enough liverpool fans in each country mentioned to fill anfield a couple times per country, let alone the fact that people will literally come from all over the world to do view a game.

When you place debt on something you receive money. That is where the debt comes from in the first place. You're right you don't, my fault for giving you more respect than you deserved. Leeds demise had everything to do with their fan base. They had massive debts placed on them that they never could have paid back BECAUSE they would have never generated enough revenue to do so. That is purely speculation on your part and neither of us know their valuations from a year ago but it clearly wasn't in the 500 million range because if thats the case Moores and Parry would have held out for more money. I made allusions to it in my posts so believe me I understand it. What I'm trying to explain to you is that since they OWN the club, the clubs money IS their money now. That 30m the club pays the bank is potentially 30m in their pockets or 30m they dont have to spend on transfers. 30m less that they have to pay on the stadium, etc. I don't think you're quite grasping what it means to own something. They borrowed money they didn't have using the club as collateral. When the club generates said money back, they repay the banks with it. Our club UNLIKE Leeds generates enough global revenue to be run this way. Do we like it as fans? No. Is it risky? It can be. Will it lead to the demise of our club? Only if our revenue drops to the point that we can no longer pay the debt back, which is exactly what can happen if we somehow manage to ochestrate a massive global boycott of our club and take the course you suggest. The one that's seen the writing on the wall seems to have changed his opinion, whether its because his fat texan friend conned him into it or he had a genuine change of heart is beyond me but he hasn't sold up after the so called "deadline" and that tells me that he isn't as interested in getting out of the situation as you would like to believe. Hicks, while he is a fat texan c*nt, knows how to handle big business and sports stadiums in the US. So far he's made a massive c*ck up of this endeavor but he isn't used to the idea of fans revolting against a teams owner because they had to borrow money to finance things. As I said before in America this is common practice, people borrow money against their homes, cars, other vital every day necessities, all the time so they can get the money they need NOW and use the money they will make in the future to pay it back later. We've all agreed that he's a c*nt and needs to go, but something so negative as boycotting the club we all love to get him out just isn't going to work. He can and probably will let it die a slow horrible death if that is the game we try to play. We will all watch from our armchairs and computer desks as he sells our top players for large sums of money and prepares to file for bankruptcy. It'd be far more productive to attempt to raise money to either A.) purchase the club (Share LiverpoolFC are doing this now) B.) Pay off the club's debt ourselves, or C.) Produce a supporter financed stadium therefore eliminating the need for money to be borrowed and more debt to be placed on the club. Starving the club of the money it needs to survive will do nothing but speed up it's demise.

I understand what you're advocating but I think you're failing to realise that the people who choose just how "short-term" our pain will be are the ones who we want out of the club. Regardless of how much money we take from them, they can and will still generate enough revenue to HOLD ON TO THE CLUB and sell all the players they can. Nevermind the fact that as others have mentioned it would be near impossible for a mass boycott to take place and be sustained. If the local fans don't go then out of towners will, not the ones like me who take part in these forums (although i must admit it'd be tempting) and understand whats going on, but the ones who could give a f*ck about all that and just want to see Liverpool play (which i can't blame them for). People from thailand, people from spain, people from any of the hundreds of nations around the world who are probably a bit out of touch with this whole SOS thing. Yes we're paying millions of debt before we build a new stadium but as i've said before this is a frequent practice in America. I don't know if the new stadium is going to be built or not but I will agree that i've been far more than disappointed by the news I've heard regarding that issue. In the end though, we still are worth more than when Moores and Parry ran the show and have more money than we did then. You lose credibility when you try to be humorous it's not your strong point. On the point you brought up, we're hardly Leeds United are we? As long as our fan base , which is one of the largest in the world (Leed's wasn't the largest in it's own city...), keeps it's faith in the club regardless of the c*nts running it, the debt will eventually be paid for whether it's by G&H or a potential buyer. As it's been pointed out by many on this thread our value has risen in spite of this mess they've gotten us into. If that's the case now then think of how much we'll be worth if/when the stadium gets built. Trust me the Americans need and want that stadium as much as we as fans do. They don't want to be paying 30m in interest for nothing and whether you accept it or not, the club's money is there own while they're on the books are owners.

I don't think you're thinking rationally here. If Liverpool Football Club suffer massive losses it doesn't hurt Hicks or Gillette ANYWHERE NEAR as much as it hurts Liverpool Football Club. The value of the club will drop yes, but there is a possibility that the interest of outside investment will drop as well. The club is going through a bit of a financial problem but it's hardly on course for a meltdown. Debt is simply debt and in America this is how big business operates. I don't support what they're doing because they made promises it wouldn't be this way, but as we in America have found out the hard way corporate Texans seem to lie their way out of everything (see President Bush). I would like them to sell as badly as anyone else but for you to suggest speeding up the financial meltdown so that they will cut their losses and leave is a bit rash innit? You don't seem to understand just what they can do to recoup their losses and THEN leave the club rotting when they finally leave. Gillette seems to be the lesser of two evils and would probably sell up but I think you underestimate how stubborn Hicks really is. So you lot stop going and sooner or later, we can't pay anyone's wages. So Rafa goes, and the Americans sell Gerrard, Torres, Masch, Xabi and co for big money. Recouping losses for themselves using that money. They keep selling players until they can't anymore, and then file bankruptcy, resulting in relegation for the club and yes a lower price for someone to buy. However, WHO then will want to buy a Liverpool stripped of it's prized players and on the verge on collapsing into nothingness. The answer NO ONE, save ShareLiverpool FC who have just as good a chance buying now as they will THEN. One thinks "We're liverpool, we can buy whoever we want and win promotion like its nothing." Ask yourself this though, how do we attract top talent if we're relegated when it already depends so much on if we qualify for europe or not? Love for the shirt yes but footballers are fast losing touch with that idea and not too many (if any) top class players will be willing to spend a season or two in division one or the championship just to return our beloved club to prominence. Sorry but I really feel it's the wrong way to go.

To be fair to Rafa I don't think he wanted to sell Xabi so much as he thought it was necessary for him to sell in order to buy his two primary targets of Keane and Barry. We all know Rafa loves to have players in the squad so he can change the team to suit the opposition of the day, also having another centre mid here that isn't considered a "youngster" like Lucas may push Xabi to regain his hungry form of 04-05 where he actually looked like playing pass and move was in his style. MON gets p*ssed at the fact that we go in for his best player and his best player makes it clear he wants to leave so he and his board slap an overrated price tag on him. Anyone who feels Barry is truly worth 18 million is fooling themselves. Various members of the media, who I hate to agree with, feel that he's overpriced and that is saying a lot considering every England player sold seems to have a 5-10 million "England" tax added to there worth simply because of their nationality. This makes Hicks and Gillette feel they're being cheated and they send Parry to negotiate with Tottenham over Keane. Parry who is in charge of our transfer negotiations needs to make HYG feel like he knows what he's doing because he thinks there is a chance he could keep his job when his contract agreement runs out and therefore pushes the Keane deal through, knowing full well that 20 million on him may put the Barry deal at risk. This would explain why Rafa is so irritated with Parry because without his primary target of Barry, the acquisition of Keane isn't going work like Rafa planned it out. Meanwhile at Villa, Barry sits around moaning about how he wants to leave but remains firmly grounded on the idea that he hand in a transfer request because his greed for a loyalty bonus apparently outweighs his desire to play champions league football and compete for the most successful club in english history. Personally, if that's his attitude then f*ck him and I'd like to see Lucas get fitter and step up to the plate or Xabi adapt his style to the one we're trying to pursue. One thing I don't understand is how Rafa will continually play Kuyt and Benayoun out wide knowing full well they're incapable of playing that position (Kuyt does well in the final 3 in a 433 but as more of a right mid he just doesn't have the athletic ability.) but won't for whatever reason throw Xabi or Lucas into the position he wanted Barry to play and tell them "Play well here or you'll lose your place in the side." I can't see them being anywhere near as bad there in the centre as Kuyt or Benayoun have been out wide. Sure they can't cover left back like Barry, and for all we know thats where Rafa truly wants him to play but if Barry is to played in the centre like we all feel than why not just throw Xabi or Lucas in for a run of games and see if they're up to it. If they aren't we revert back to 442 or 4231 and wait til the window in january.

I agree that it's mind boggling that we've changed from our most effective formation to this, but to be fair we can't play a 4-2-3-1 without one of Masch or Lucas in the side. If Plessis had improved on his showings at the end of last season then perhaps but he's looked lost out there when he's been in. We'll see the formation Rafa truly feels gives us the best chance to win against the Mancs, providing all players required for it (whatever IT may be) are fit.

Say you what you will about kuyt as much of it is deserved, but he always seems to pop up with the odd goal when none of our usuals look like scoring. The problem with him as a striker is he is too generous, whether it be from lack of confidence in himself or admiration of torres game that he always tries that extra pass instead of having a go at it himself. He needs more confidence or even arrogance to develop in that position. Think it's unfair to call him a riise, sure he doesn't look like helping us win much but at the same time he has yet to help us lose either. Same thing can't be said about the ginger one and I was a supporter of him when he was here. Riise had the athletic ability (minus that lack of a right foot of course) but not the mental capacity to use it correctly. Kuyt simply doesn't have the athletic talent required of a winger, but he works hard and has a good enough footballing brain to do a job there until Rafa can purchase his replacement and move him to a 3rd option as a striker. (4th if Ngog comes good quickly.)

Simply because Spain and Barca run it does not mean that Xabi is suited for it. Xabi doesn't start in the spanish midfield he comes on if they need him too, and other than the connection with his father Xabi has f*ck all to do with Barca so i don't know why they were brought into the discussion in his defense. The problem with Xabi was exposed by their goal on Saturday. Had that been Mascherano he closes Mido down one or two steps faster and they don't score and we possibly start a counter attack. His defensive awareness is fine as he read the danger but his reaction time and pace leave a lot to be desired for a team who rely's on him to stop that kind of thing. The case can be made that if Gerrard was back in defense as well Xabi wouldn't have had to worry about Mido but Gerrard is RARELY back in defense in a situation like that. That isn't how he plays and it's not how our manager wants him to play, the reason we shelled out the money for Masch is SO Gerrard has to worry less about his defensive responsibilities. Xabi's passing is great, don't get me wrong and I see him a valuable player to our side, he really is one of our best midfielders but his style is becoming a contrast to the one the club is pursuing now, not because of lack of skill or technical quality but because of lack of pace. Xabi likes to find the killer pass from deep rather than perform a series of short passes. We need that at times, but to win against the more organised sides in this league we need to be able to pass and move better than we do now. As for the solution to Kuyt on the right, and here is where barca should have been brought to the discussion in my opinion, there are a couple of them. One is the 4-2-3-1 that we played last season with Gerrard on the right, Keane in the hole behind Torres and Babel on the left. That would work well but it depends on how deep Rafa expects Keane to drop in midfield. I think Keane would be excellent on linking the midfield and Torres, wingers but I think at times we may see him stranded with all his outlets too far away and too many defenders coming at him from various directions for him to dribble past anyone. The other way I wouldn't mind seeing us play is a 4-2-2-2 with Babel and Gerrard on the wings in more of attacking midfield roles similar to the way Messi is/was played for Barca. Masch and Xabi holding down the centre with lucas rotating in depending on opposition. Keane upfront on the left but slightly back off the line to better receive passes from the holders and Torres upfront on the right doing what he does. This gives Gerrard freedom to do as he pleases like Messi does, but if he needs to be he's still on the right and able to get a cross in. Keane will be too close to the opposition back four to be left unchecked by them and not deep enough for any holding mids to feel they need to worry about him this will cause one of their two centre halves to come out more to defend him, Giving Torres one centre half to beat instead of two and making space for Babel to run into and be more dangerous in the final third. We can just as easily switch Keane and Torres, allowing Keane to poach more and Torres to have more chances at dribbling past players which he is good at as well. The problem there is I feel Keane is a better passer than Torres at this point in their careers.

Funny how Carra got in when the consensus opinion of our support (myself included) is that he had a drop in form last year. Do you think thats down to us expecting that much more from him than others saw last year? Or that UEFA are just daft c*nts throwing in some big names to make the award seem more prestigious?

I'm in, hope y'all don't mind. That's odd i'm on firefox as well and it let me in no problem

The funny thing is, Kuyt actually set up a good amount of the Dutch goals and scored a couple himself. Had he been on his workrate could have kept them in the game and possibly took it to penalties. Granted I didn't see just how average he was in the first half as I missed it but Van Persie did f*ck all anyway so it was a wasted sub in my opinion. Arshavin looks to be the real deal from the four games i've seen Russia. I dont know how he is at club level but he certainly seems like he could fit in with our current formation and back up torres if need be. He may well be cheap because of where he plays but if he keeps up this form then clubs may pay high for him and he isn't a player I would want to see us spend the majority of our transfer budget on.

RIP

I knew as soon as Terry strolled up he was going to bottle it, but it didn't bother me because i thought cech was the better keeper.. I was wrong, and now i have to deal with happy little american mancs (if the real thing are half as bad as them I feel your pain...) everywhere.

just put it on as i got out of my fire science class. It's really depressing isn't it. It's hard wanting the blue team to win for once, and the fact the red team is UTD makes me sick.. It probably was a bad idea to turn it on in the first place, but at the same time its the last truly meaningful football game of the year (being from america, the euro's, while they will pass time have very little meaning for me.) I'd like spain to do well as it means torres has done well and perhaps in mid-season (in a good way) form for us at the start of the new season, but at the same time want them to get knocked out early so none of our boys get injured in the process. Both of these sides really are full of c***ts though aren't they? To much whining for me, but i've decided that as long as chelsea don't bottle it near the end (this is the mancs remember), it will be worth it to see ronaldo crying on the floor of the pitch when its all said and done.

I think Sammy is going to help us out very much actually. He knows the ins and outs of the club and its traditions better than most do. If he can keep the boys together and motivated throughout the season and let those on the bubble know the manager still has confidence in them, then his appointment will be for the better. I too am confused what was meant by "challenge" rafa, but if the OP means someone to keep him down to earth, rather than simply endorse every idea he has like he's the almighty then that's a good thing. In american football the head coach (manager) has several little coaches who handle things allowing them to focus on the big picture. When the head coach wants to be extra aggressive, the offensive coordinator reminds him of the consequences, I realise proper football is far different as you don't have one play followed by a break then another play but still in the end I believe even Rafa might need his tactics to be brought back down to earth every now and then.

The interview looks more like a conversation between Fernando and Pepe, if anything they're the ones doing the interview, therefore they should be comfortable with each other. I do agree however that spanish journalism seems to have far less crap in it than you would see from an English or American source. Great Idea though whoever thought of it.

We all know that's not going to happen, that's the point, unless the c*nt takes a right-hand role or Rafa leaves us looking for a replacement I don't want him anywhere near this club.

Out of our current lot that's got to be Voronin on the far left. Can't see too many downloading a 3d image of him to parade around on their phone though so not sure why they made one.

It doesn't really make sense does it? Why back a team that barely beat us when they've spent 30 odd million on one player who rarely sees the pitch. Someone should tell Whelan it isn't Rafa's fault Riise is a monoped and therefore lacks confidence in his right foot, nor is it Rafa's fault that our defense gave up on at least two of periods of play that lead to their goals (the Riise o.g. and Drogba's 2nd, hell I'd say Riise could've made more of an effort to block Drogba's first to be honest, but since he beat Reina at his near post I'll give drogba that one on skill alone). I highly doubt Mourinho could've inspired anything different than what we saw. That entire team was written off long ago when the "special one" abandoned ship, they've been playing with a Chip on their shoulder ever since and the ones who haven't done much started to produce with the few who actually love the club playing their hardest to make sure no one else follows Mourinho's lead. I venture to say that IF Mourinho was our manager that lot would've played a lot harder than they did simply to prove it wasn't Mourinho who was responsible for all their success like the media seemed to think, never mind most of us really believe it's down to Abramovich and his 230 million pounds. There are only two circumstances I would want Mourinho here, 1.) if Rafa bolted for a place where he had more job security (which I don't think will happen) OR 2.) he wanted to work WITH Rafa instead of replace him, other than that I see no value in continuing to associate him with us, it simply unsettles the players and manager even more. Also I'm getting quite tired of Lampard being labeled brave for taking that penalty after losing his mother. You'd think he's the only person to ever suffer the loss of a relative the way they're carrying on about it. Funny how they've become media darlings since the whole dissent issue when they're the ones who started it all, now everything associated with Chelsea is better than us (supposedly, not my feelings) because of one lucky win. Nevermind that we've beat them over two legs twice before (Albeit with a little luck ourselves the first time). They're lucky their playing the mancs in moscow or I'd be praying they get embarrassed. Perhaps there is a way they both lose something, we will see. Personally a Chelsea win followed by a mass exodus of all their talented players to wherever mourinho ends up would suit me just fine.

Great statistics those thanks. I had noticed that this year we seemed to have had problems holding on to leads, where as in the last few years we had problems getting leads in the first place. It really shows that our priorities really should be to strengthen our defence, particularly in the wide areas but I only say that because I feel rather comfortable about our four centre backs, I feel between Carra, Skrtel, Agger and Hyppia we'll be well covered there for at least the next three years. We might already have the attacking players to be honest, I agree with most on here that we could use more creativity from the wings and in midfield, with a 15 a season striker to spell Torres or partner with him, but other than that we've got good things to look forward too. It's been known we want another centre back and the Agger situation forced Rafa's hand in January. Now we need to get some quality fullbacks and then worry about the more offensive players.

While I agree that if you take that into account our season has been dismal, in terms of what our team has done, and with all the boardroom b****** thats been going on this season, we've done better than most would've. It hasn't been that bad, we've made improvements, we've got our 20 goal a season striker, and we've seen some encouraging things. Also I don't like how I have to be able to remember us conquering all to be a true Liverpool fan. I was just born the last time we won the league, and I wasn't around for any of the CL wins besides the last one. I still consider myself a true fan as there isn't any other team in the world in any other sport that I enjoy watching more than Liverpool, my apologies for not having been around as long as some.. I try not to measure our season by the success of another club in the same season. The mancs waited 6 years for this and it didn't really come into anything until they went on that massive spending spree buying 20 million pound unproven talents and bench players, The same will happen for us or we will win with less money than they have and either way I'll be happier when the day comes.

Haha, It seems so long ago but it really wasn't. I really thought the lot of them were going to turn into real players for us but it just never happened. Funny that you have Baros over Cisse though, Cisse might have had the poorest on pitch attitude ever but he was always at least a threat to score on the break with his pace, and he wasn't a bad finisher, whereas Baros was only good for a throw in and a run down a dark alley. Put him in a Czech shirt however...

Don't forget Reading away, thats four games right there and I know we were away at that one, but we really shouldn't have lost to Reading at all let alone the way we did. If we turned all those into wins then surely we'd be right in the thick of it, if not on the verge of winning. We really do have a habit of playing down to the competition and that should be sorted by Rafa over the summer, also we need to get rid of this fear we seem to have when it comes to playing United. At Anfield this season we could've won but instead we let them hang around and they nick a late winner, which ALWAYS seems to happen for them. The only game against any big four side that I thought we deserved to lose was United away and the whole Bennet/Cashley/Ref saga from the week before forced us into the role of example, Masch gave bennet the chance for his 15 min and the guy took it and ran with it. (Not blaming him for the booking, just saying his attitude on the day was such that you knew he was getting sent off right when he got the first one, especially with a manc ref on the pitch for a Bloodhunt.)

Problem with Riise , for me anyway, is more so that once he caught on to the fact that the lot of our supporters think he's a useless monoped liability, his effort and form dropped off considerably. In contrast with Kuyt who the majority of our supporters also seem to think of as not good enough but his effort and enthusiasm for the game have kept him in the starting 11, despite his limited pace and ball control/first touch skills. For Kewell a pay per play deal would be good, but I doubt we could pull it off, his agent overvalues his worth. Being an American though, I can always put logic in the garbage for a good ole fashioned lynching. I'll get the rope, you guys just find me a nice tree.. (sarcasm obviously)

To be fair man, the lot of the people that want him to go would like that because he gets paid too much for the amount that he plays. On a reduced wage, incentive-laden contract however I don't think it'd be too much to resign him but apparently his agent thinks he's worth more. I don't think he'll get a bigger contract elsewhere unless one of the Australian sides has loads of cash to spend on him, or he makes the jump to MLS as some clubs luxury signing or whatever s*** rule was introduced when Beckham came. Either way he won't be playing in Europe and will fall off into obscurity. Maybe one of the smaller clubs in the prem takes him but to be honest I can't see him going anywhere else without some sort of pay per plays deal and I can't think of any other set of supporters who will have the same patience with him as we did, especially this late in his career. So, if he shops himself around and then decides to come back here on the reduced wage incentive-laden contract mentioned and Rafa took him, would you feel that Rafa is losing it and therefore needs to go? I don't know why this surprises anyone Rafa clearly rates Kewell and has done since he's been here, how else do you explain him starting in cup finals (CL 05 at that which was our biggest game for some time.) after such long layoffs in play? We all thought Rafa rated Morientes when he came but it was clear that he wasn't going to play until match fit, whereas whenever Kewell was even on the bubble of being fit, chances our Rafa was going to play him if he thought he could last the time needed from him on the pitch. I agree about Aurelio though, as much as I think he could be a great left back for us he just seems to get injured at the most inopportune moments for himself and the club doesn't he? Last season it happened as he was doing well in his run of games and this season it was arguably the turning point against Chelsea.