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Have a feeling this is just the beginning of a long nightmare as a supporter of LFC. We've come to the point where it's almost justifiable from a performance/results point of view for the owners to give Rafa the boot. And if it happens chances are they're not going to get a good enough replacement. And then, the nightmare will well and truly kick in... I can't even see the remotely funny side of things anymore...

BTW, talking about mockers and what not - here's something for the superstitious who believe in trends. Our CL record since Rafa has joined: 2005: Champions 2006: 2nd Round 2007: Finalists 2008: Semi-finalists 2009: Quarter-finalists 2010: Group Stages 2011: ??? We've been eliminated at every stage of the competition proper since Rafa took us all the way in 04/05. There are two possibilities here for season 10/11 - the most obvious is that we don't get the fourth place finish, hence not even make the competition. However, there is also the other possibility: we finish 4th but get an incredibly tough draw and get knocked out in the Final Qualifying Stages. An optimist would say that the cycle will reset - if you are one of them then put your money on us winning it again in 2011!

You're having a laugh right? He had self respect as a professional footballer which is why he chose Man Utd over Hull. Me being able to think rationally about his situation does not mean that I don't hope that he injures himself everytime he gets on the pitch for that lot. Just so I can have a laugh, just like how I did when he got hurt against Sweden in the World Cup and lost another 7 or so months of his career. It was the only time in my life I've seriously chuckled - and it was heartfelt - at a player getting injured.

Does anyone have a name for said Carra signature move (where he gets the ball in space, rolls it forward with the bottom of his foot and then laces it 40 yards upfield) yet?

Some very good football played. Should have scored about 5. Gerrard in center midfield was a breath of fresh air for me. The presence, movement and forward momentum he gives to us from that position is very much needed. Aquilani looks like his game might be more suited to playing in the advanced role but good to see him get pitch time together with Gerrard and Torres.

I think this here is the key. Rafa needs to tell the lads to just go out and get the second against teams that have potent attacks 'cause if we sit back they will score anyway, such is the way our season has gone. It really feels like we've already lost as many games this season from being a goal up as we have in the previous three or four combined, so rare has it been (off the top of my head anyway). I also think we're going to be patchy all throughout the season. We've had 2-0 wins against our two biggest rivals we've played so far, and not been able to build on those results. We also strung together 4/5 wins in a row earlier in the season, but we're still in this mess now. FWIW I don't think anyone is doing anything outrageously wrong - I just think we need to accept that some things are out of our control, and that we just need to play our way out of it. And I suspect the manner in which we go about doing that will go some way to showing whether Rafa is ultimately the man who will bring the title home to Anfield. The best quick-fix right now is hammering someone at Anfield, hopefully Wigan in the next game.

Funny enough I thought Lucas was excellent in the 2nd half vs Brum, and that once Aquilani came on for him (who seemed knackered) the momentum we built up dissipated... I think that moment made me appreciate how hard Rafa's job is - he needed to give his new player some playing time but didn't want to affect the dynamics of the team in a bad way...

I'm wondering if it's possible his two major injuries against City last season and Carragher against Spurs have had an effect on his bravery in the air?

1. Johnson 2. N'gog 3. Lucas

To be fair, his first touch has never been great. And when he's not on form, it's not difficult to guess that his weaknesses will be shown up/break down. What we need is for the man to draw up a huge performance and will himself back into top form through the character and determination that he has. And quick...

Was chatting with my mate who's pretty sound and is a Spurs supporter. In his last four matches, Keane has played the kind of minutes that Rafa was giving him when he was at Liverpool: 66, 55, 62, 64 I just don't think he's as good a player as his reputation makes him out to be...or at least he's not as good as the season before he joined us anyway.

Tell him we're still better off than in 04/05 because we're still above his team in the league despite being in an awful situation...

I don't engage in conversations about our club with fans of other football clubs unless they are reasonable. And by reasonable I mean they don't gobble up the rubbish the media says and then spit it back out at you. And I have come across none so far...

I happen to think it was a big factor. What endeared Alonso to the fans was that he was a warrior on the pitch for the most part. He cared about the team when he wore the shirt, and I don't recall him shirking out of too many battles. That Rafa wanted to sell him, and that he was being hawked around must have hurt his pride massively. There was an edge to his play (last season) which I felt back then was triggered by a determination to prove himself - could be wrong, but that's just how I see/saw it. And when he returned from injury in the tail end of 07/08, he was still not at his best. I recall him giving away the ball often enough (to remember it!) times because of simple passes going astray or just getting dispossessed in front of the back four. Whilst there was an overhyping of his loss of form, that he was not at his brilliant best was there to see. And if it helps in any way to qualify my views, I happen to think that prior to last season his best season as a whole came not in his first, but his second year when he sharpened up his defensive play, learnt to win and control midfield battles and really contributed to us being able to dictate games.

Agreed. What we (or at least I) know about Barry is this - he is a very good all round midfield player. His positional play, passing, off the ball movement and defensive work are of a very high level. And we have seen that he is adept at playing both the holding role as well as the more advanced midfielder in a 4-4-2 or even a midfield trio. And he is able to control games very well. With Aquilani we have seen from the glimpses of his play to be able to tell that he is supremely talented, but everything else about his game remains like you say, largely untested.

I guess what I was trying to say but never did was that: 1) I reckon the nett effect would have been very similar. 2) Because of (1), the parallel universe imaginations for me only really begin this past summer. Actually having thought about it more, I think you're right. And this is the one question which made me say that - if Rafa didn't try to sell Alonso, would Xabi have raised his game so drastically (I suspect maybe not)? And then we have another 25 knock-on-effect questions...

Do you think we would have done better/worse considering Alonso had a stormer of a season? Riera came in and contributed to some good play by simply giving us the balance a decent left footed midfield player would. I suspect Rafa would have got Keane anyway, so we would have had a slightly different system, Barry in place of Alonso, with Keane probably still surprising Rafa with his lack of tactical awareness... I'm more inclined to believe that Barry choosing City over us this past summer is more critical.

That was some finish indeed! I'm still young-ish so I was surprised to hear the scorer's name was McGrath...

this is not good...

how does a fat man move so fast?

I suspect today was Lucas' breakthrough game. Yes, won his fair share of battles while using the ball efficiently. Picked his moments to get forward well too. But what set today's performance apart from his recent good matches was the enormity of this match. Today was HUGE, make no mistake. Our season was riding on it - defeat would have effectively ended our hopes and further dented confidence. Not because of a 10 point gap, but because of the psychological blow. Today Lucas played with heart, passion but also with a very high level of intelligence. He had a presence about him, and took responsibility - it was as if he knew it was his time to shine. And in my opinion he did. There was always a pretty good player in him, but today's performance proved, perhaps to himself most of all, that he is ready to take the next step up and dominate football games. Next weekend at Fulham will be a big game for him, if he performs with the kind authority like he did today then I think he will go on to develop into a very good midfield player for this club.

Even with Insua starting a little jittery today, Agger's presence exuded confidence all round. We've really missed him in the last couple of seasons.

1. Lucas 2. Carragher 3. Aurelio

Thanks, I was going to say something that might have got me banned...

Love how Carra and Agger went over there to make their case to the ref as well, whatever it was. We are up for this - my only worry was there was no fight. If we keep fighting it will be alright. Unless they get to the ref during half time.