I said it after Utd game..

[Guest rickyjohn]

and I'll say it again now.

 

We must improve our approach to these games against the 'big' teams. We just show them too much respect, it's so obvious and frustrating. People can harp on about controlling the game for 35 minutes, but its all how you define control. Against Utd for 89 minutes and Chelsea for 35, sure we kept it fairly solid at the back and cautious in midfield, and were over reliant on set pieces and long balls hoping Crouch could do something. Its just too cautious ans quite simple against the good teams who can score out of nothing, your giving yourswlf too much to do.

 

In the two games mentioned above, we very rarely midfielders forward and just didn't offer our strikers movement or support. Add that to the fact we have the most 1 dimensional strikers I've seen for a long while and it's no wonder we've scored so little goals this season.

 

It's no coincidence that the only time we beat one of the big three under Benitez in the Prem was the one and only time we went for them from the start - Arsenal hime. Similarly the only time we've beaten Chelsea is when we went at then at home in the CL semi.

 

We simpy must attack them as a team, not one or two players. We drastically reduce our chances of scoring and against quality teams sooner or later they'll score goals out of nowhere.

[dodgy1]

and I'll say it again now.

 

We must improve our approach to these games against the 'big' teams. We just show them too much respect, it's so obvious and frustrating. People can harp on about controlling the game for 35 minutes, but its all how you define control. Against Utd for 89 minutes and Chelsea for 35, sure we kept it fairly solid at the back and cautious in midfield, and were over reliant on set pieces and long balls hoping Crouch could do something. Its just too cautious ans quite simple against the good teams who can score out of nothing, your giving yourswlf too much to do.

 

In the two games mentioned above, we very rarely midfielders forward and just didn't offer our strikers movement or support. Add that to the fact we have the most 1 dimensional strikers I've seen for a long while and it's no wonder we've scored so little goals this season.

 

It's no coincidence that the only time we beat one of the big three under Benitez in the Prem was the one and only time we went for them from the start - Arsenal hime. Similarly the only time we've beaten Chelsea is when we went at then at home in the CL semi.

 

We simpy must attack them as a team, not one or two players. We drastically reduce our chances of scoring and against quality teams sooner or later they'll score goals out of nowhere.

 

Pretty much spot on lad.

[Guest Kev]

We do struggle against the better sides in the Premiership (Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal), we have played United and Chelsea twice each and only scored one goal and got one point. We have to play Arsenal twice very soon and they will provide another stern test.

 

Crouch, Nando and Cisse are average forwards who are easily marked out of the game by the better defenders like Ferdinand, Terry etc. Campbell and Toure will be back for Arsenal so I honestly cannot see us scoring against them either. The only plus points I can see from the games against Arsenal is the fact they will be played on decent pitches.

 

I was hoping for 2nd place, but at the moment I'd settle for third because in a nutshell, our strikers are s*** (Robbie excluded).

[dodgy1]

Crouch, Nando and Cisse are average forwards who are easily marked out of the game by the better defenders like Ferdinand, Terry etc. Campbell

 

I reckon they could be marked out of any Prem game to be honest.

[Bootle Buck]

Spot on Ricky John we have shown far too much caution against the top teams. Recently teams that have gone at Chelsea and Man Utd have got something out of the game. The old American sports saying "Offence is the best form of defence" is so right. If you go at teams it keeps them away from you. Some of our best results in the past two seasons have been when we have gone flat out.

 

Olympiacos -second half

Juve-Home first half

Chelsea - CL semi home First 5 minutes

AC Milan - Fist 15 minutes second half.

Betis - away first half

Everton away Derby first 20 minutes

 

We literally have frightened the shet out of teams when we have gone for it. Unfortunately Rafa is too cautious most of the time.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Bootle Buck

[Nebraska Red]

 

We literally have frightened the shet out of teams when we have gone for it. Unfortunately Rafa is too cautious most of the time.

 

I don't think he is too cautious, he puts out a team that he feels is strong enough to do the job he wants them to do. As a manager, you can only ask the players to do the things you want them to do, you cannot make allowances for poor marking, missed tackles and w***** referees.

 

we have to remember that Chelsea and Man U are 1st and 2nd in the league and that losing to them is not the end of the world. I was more concerned about the Brum game and that loss of 2 points as I was not surprised to see us lose today because they are a better team than us at the moment.

[Guz]

We do struggle against the better sides in the Premiership (Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal), we have played United and Chelsea twice each and only scored one goal and got one point. We have to play Arsenal twice very soon and they will provide another stern test.

 

Crouch, Nando and Cisse are average forwards who are easily marked out of the game by the better defenders like Ferdinand, Terry etc. Campbell and Toure will be back for Arsenal so I honestly cannot see us scoring against them either. The only plus points I can see from the games against Arsenal is the fact they will be played on decent pitches.

 

I was hoping for 2nd place, but at the moment I'd settle for third because in a nutshell, our strikers are s*** (Robbie excluded).

 

We only have Arsenal left to play in that bracket and I'd expect us to beat them at home. 2nd place will be decided by who shows the most consistency from now till the end of the season. 1-1 vs Birmingham will hurt us far more than today

[Bootle Buck]

I don't think he is too cautious, he puts out a team that he feels is strong enough to do the job he wants them to do. As a manager, you can only ask the players to do the things you want them to do, you cannot make allowances for poor marking, missed tackles and w***** referees.

 

we have to remember that Chelsea and Man U are 1st and 2nd in the league and that losing to them is not the end of the world. I was more concerned about the Brum game and that loss of 2 points as I was not surprised to see us lose today because they are a better team than us at the moment.

 

We started with Crouch up front by himself. We haven't done that in ages. Kewell has been great on the right but we asked him to play as a link striker. Our midfielders didn't gt forward as much as they normally do. That is to me is being cautious.

[Flight]

We do struggle against the better sides in the Premiership (Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal), we have played United and Chelsea twice each and only scored one goal and got one point. We have to play Arsenal twice very soon and they will provide another stern test.

 

Crouch, Nando and Cisse are average forwards who are easily marked out of the game by the better defenders like Ferdinand, Terry etc. Campbell and Toure will be back for Arsenal so I honestly cannot see us scoring against them either. The only plus points I can see from the games against Arsenal is the fact they will be played on decent pitches.

 

I was hoping for 2nd place, but at the moment I'd settle for third because in a nutshell, our strikers are s*** (Robbie excluded).

 

Agree with all your points, but we CANNOT settle for third place. We absolutely need second place to get automatic CL qualification. After the World Cup, the extra time will make a big difference next term.

 

I still think we will finish second; we have a great run in for the last six weeks.

Edited February 5, 2006 by Flight

[Guest rickyjohn]

I don't think he is too cautious, he puts out a team that he feels is strong enough to do the job he wants them to do. As a manager, you can only ask the players to do the things you want them to do, you cannot make allowances for poor marking, missed tackles and w***** referees.

 

we have to remember that Chelsea and Man U are 1st and 2nd in the league and that losing to them is not the end of the world. I was more concerned about the Brum game and that loss of 2 points as I was not surprised to see us lose today because they are a better team than us at the moment.

 

Sorry but I don't get what you're saying? It's not necessarily to do with the team he put out, it's the way those 11 he puts out play, in terms of positions and tactics. Now don't read that comment as Rafa hasn't a clue tactially please, he's a great manager, I love him. But my point is against the bigger teams, we can't afford to sit deep and hope to score from a set piece. It might work once or twice in 10, or maybe even 4 or 5 out of 10 if you have truly quality strikers who can make something out of nothing, but generally the oppositions quality with win through.

 

Our 7 or 8 games against Chelsea sum it all up IMO. Twicee have we actually gone at them. We won one (CL semi), and narrowly lost the other in the Carling Cup finial. The other, majority of games we have played a containing game and rarely seriously attacked in numbers, hoping to get a goal from nothing. We've either got a 0-0, or lost. Says it all really.

[lawrie]

The top 6 teams will always take points off one another generally over the course of a season thereby largely negating these results overall. I believe that in several seasons when Manure won the Premiership they had the worst results against the other 5 teams in the top 6 than any of the others had against each other. Granted its a slightly different situation at the moment with Chelsea being so strong but its still how you get on against the middle to lower order that really matters in the general scheme of things and this is an area where we have definately made strides this season - onwards and upwards

[anny road]

i must have been watching a different game

 

for two long perioids of this game we were on the front foot

[Guest rickyjohn]

The top 6 teams will always take points off one another generally over the course of a season thereby largely negating these results overall. I believe that in several seasons when Manure won the Premiership they had the worst results against the other 5 teams in the top 6 than any of the others had against each other. Granted its a slightly different situation at the moment with Chelsea being so strong but its still how you get on against the middle to lower order that really matters in the general scheme of things and this is an area where we have definately made strides this season - onwards and upwards

 

All valid points to a degree, but does that mean we should take these results less seriously than against a lower team? Far from it. 1. Its what you judge yourself against, how good you actually are. 2. In our situation now every game against the top team is doubly important. In fact, you could argue the total opposite and that these reults have had a huge impact on our season in the league. If we'd had better results against Chelsea and Utd we'd still be challenging for the title.

Edited February 5, 2006 by rickyjohn

[Kite]

For the first 35 mins Chelsea were all over the place, looking nervous and disorganised. If we hadn't let in such a weak goal I'm convinced we would have broken them. However, the goal gave them back their confidence and it was we that became disorganised. But the team Rafa put on initially was not a negative side, the dominance we had going forward attested to that.

[slapnuts]

and I'll say it again now.

 

We must improve our approach to these games against the 'big' teams. We just show them too much respect,

 

too right get the studs up make the c***s s*** them sels. thats the way i would play it.

[Guest rickyjohn]

i must have been watching a different game

 

for two long perioids of this game we were on the front foot

 

You must have been. Read my first post. We may have had more possession for the 1st 35 minutes, but apart from the odd bit of discomfort we caused them at set pieces, we never seriously threatened and didn't get forward in the numbers required to do that. Then as if to sum up my point, their first attack and they scored. After that I can genuinely say I can only remember two occasions we got close to their penalty area, which is a disgrace really given the team we have. This was purely and simply due to our stubborness to stick to our rigid game plan.

 

Again, to re-iterate, this has only been a major issue against the bigger teams. Against almost every other team this season we seem to have had the attititude that I've not seen for a long time, a team full of believe that genuinely believed they could an would win. Which what makes all this all the more frustrating.

[Paddy 66]

Personally i thought our aproach to the game was corrct and we went at them in long periods of the match.

[Guest Kev]

Agree with all your points, but we CANNOT settle for third place. We absolutely need second place to get automatic CL qualification. After the World Cup, the extra time will make a big difference next term.

 

I still think we will finish second; we have a great run in for the last six weeks.

 

Man United have the measure of us, so do Chelsea. Cannot see us going any further in the FA Cup, and progression in the CL seems a distant hope.

 

Yes, I am f***ing totally depressed, not because of the result today but the performance over the last four games. Rafa has started to change the players again and it shows. The only time he continued with the same players coincided with our unbeaten run.

[Guest rickyjohn]

Personally i thought our aproach to the game was corrct and we went at them in long periods of the match.

I genuinely can't believe you can say that. As I have said, look at the facts. We lost, 2-0 and in all honesty they may have got a couple more. THEIR game plan was spot on, just as at Anfield, because they knew exactly what to expect from us. We have used exactly the same tactics for every other league game against them under Rafa (and lost) and for 3 of the 4 CL games, which were 0-0's. The only game we didn't was the home CL semi. Which we won.......

Edited February 5, 2006 by rickyjohn

[Stevie]

Rafa has started to change the players again and it shows. The only time he continued with the same players coincided with our unbeaten run.

But you can't really expect the players to be able to play in all games though? I think the real problem is we just don't have the quality and depth in the squad. In most cases we can't just bring a like-for-like player in and expect the same sort of quality. I'm sure Rafa is doing his best, but it all takes time if you don't have a infinite supply of funds.

[BG]

i must have been watching a different game

 

for two long perioids of this game we were on the front foot

 

I agree - until the second goal we were the better side in the game. It's obvious we need to finish better/have a better finisher and a right winger to give us something a bit different.

 

I was pleased with our approach though. We dominated them for long periods.

[Michael]

Man United have the measure of us, so do Chelsea. Cannot see us going any further in the FA Cup, and progression in the CL seems a distant hope.

 

Yes, I am f***ing totally depressed, not because of the result today but the performance over the last four games. Rafa has started to change the players again and it shows. The only time he continued with the same players coincided with our unbeaten run.

 

I am not depressed. We have to accept that a combination of loss of form in the case of players like Xabi and tiredness, mental and physical, in the case of our centre backs has lead to these recent results. We are losing concentration at set pieces and at the end of games. The early start to the season and the Japan trip are taking their toll and we don't have a big enough squad to cover for it. But I would far rather have this situation where we have seen how good we can be when we are fresh and in form than the alternative of being consistent at a lower level. We have raised the bar for our performances this season. Given quailty additions to the squad and fewer games next season we really should be able to challenge over the entire season.

[Guest TanMan]

i must have been watching a different game

 

for two long perioids of this game we were on the front foot

 

64% possession an all that too. Terry had the gaul to suggest they were back to their best and had gone for the juguler. I saw a Chelsea team outwitted in the mostpart who scored against the run of play through one sloppy collective mistake. Towards the end we committed more and more and they enevitably exploited the extra space and our tired legs.

 

To suggest going at them all guns blazing is daft, it was the wrong tactic at Anfield after wrongly assuming we could 'do 'em' having equalised.

Edited February 6, 2006 by TanMan

[Guest westang]

But you can't really expect the players to be able to play in all games though? I think the real problem is we just don't have the quality and depth in the squad. In most cases we can't just bring a like-for-like player in and expect the same sort of quality. I'm sure Rafa is doing his best, but it all takes time if you don't have a infinite supply of funds.

 

painstakingly true. with our current squad we do have quite a number of 'possibilities' but some of these possibilities/ options are not as effective and reliable

[Puskas]

We simpy must attack them as a team, not one or two players. We drastically reduce our chances of scoring and against quality teams sooner or later they'll score goals out of nowhere.

The last time we attacked Chelsea all out they beat us 4:1.

To beat them we have to cut out the individual mistakes - like someone leaving Gallas unmarked at a corner, and someone playing Crespo onside.