Cricket World Cup

madaboutlfc · April 7, 2011

To be fair, he also says Ian Botham was the greatest all rounder, so what does he know?

Englishman in supporting an English guy shocker. To be honest Tendulkar with the world cup can now sit at the top table albeit at the far end of it

Cobs · April 7, 2011

but like you saying Imran was better than Botham until we established you'd never seen either play and were only going on what your Dad told you....

madaboutlfc · April 7, 2011

but like you saying Imran was better than Botham until we established you'd never seen either play and were only going on what your Dad told you....

Ive seen them play from 87 till their end of career. My dads opinion does not count anyway(he pretends that cricket apart from ashes doesnt matter) because statistics and silverware side with Imran.

ChrisC · April 7, 2011

TEEEEEWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Cobs · April 7, 2011

Ive seen them play from 87 till their end of career. My dads opinion does not count anyway(he pretends that cricket apart from ashes doesnt matter) because statistics and silverware side with Imran.

Pakistan won the World Cup but the stats show Botham was superior (as was the case last time we did this)

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playercomparison/test/all-rounder/?name_selected=1508&name_selected2=1803&graph=rating&name=Botham&name2=Imran%20Khan

and he was better than Hadlee

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playercomparison/test/all-rounder/?graph=rating&name=Botham&name2=Richard+Hadlee&name_selected=1508&name_selected2=1803

and better than Kapil Dev

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playercomparison/test/all-rounder/?graph=rating&name=Botham&name2=Kapil+dev&name_selected=1508&name_selected2=1803&name_selected2=1850&name_selected2=1850

Sobers remains THE man however

madaboutlfc · April 7, 2011

These are rankings though. Imran Khans batting and bowling average is superior to Botham.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/40560.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/9163.html

I would Pollock and Kallis up there as well now as one of the best allrounders evers

Edited April 7, 2011 by madaboutlfc

Cobs · April 7, 2011

http://www.ynwa.tv/forum/index.php?showtopic=119448&view=findpost&p=1575084

this should save us all the mentalness a second time

madaboutlfc · April 7, 2011

http://www.ynwa.tv/forum/index.php?showtopic=119448&view=findpost&p=1575084

this should save us all the mentalness a second time

Imran probably banged more chicks whilst playing at his peak so he wins by default..

_00_deathscar · April 7, 2011

On a completely unrelated note, saw this on another forum...

We all know that there are too many batsmen with averages over 50 since 2000. There have been lot of discussions on who is great and who is legend and so forth. Therefore, I tried to put numbers on it. I posted this in the draft thread, but thought it could be worth starting another thread itself. Number of batsmen with average over 50 (qualification: 1000 runs) 2000s: 23 (Also includes 2010, 11) 1990s: 6 1980s: 6 1970s: 8 1960s: 8 1950s: 6 Number of batsmen with average over 50 (qualification: 2000 runs) 2000s: 20 (Also includes 2010, 11) 1990s: 4 1980s: 5 1970s: 6 1960s: 5 1950s: 5

Edited April 7, 2011 by _00_deathscar

kop205 · April 7, 2011

Interesting read that deathscar

Cobs · April 7, 2011

that's just a lot of padding, deathscar

_00_deathscar · April 7, 2011

Well that would be on a complete unrelated note.

FFS, I meant to post this:

We all know that there are too many batsmenwith averages over 50 since 2000. There have been lot of discussions on who isgreat and who is legend and so forth.
Therefore, I tried to put numbers on it. I postedthis in the draft thread, but thought it could be worth starting another threaditself.

Number of batsmen with average over 50(qualification: 1000 runs)

2000s: 23 (Also includes 2010, 11)
1990s: 6
1980s: 6
1970s: 8
1960s: 8
1950s: 6

Number of batsmen with average over 50(qualification: 2000 runs)

2000s: 20 (Also includes 2010, 11)
1990s: 4
1980s: 5
1970s: 6
1960s: 5
1950s: 5

carrafan · April 7, 2011

On a completely unrelated note, saw this on another forum...
We all know that there are too many batsmen with averages over 50 since 2000. There have been lot of discussions on who is great and who is legend and so forth. Therefore, I tried to put numbers on it. I posted this in the draft thread, but thought it could be worth starting another thread itself. Number of batsmen with average over 50 (qualification: 1000 runs) 2000s: 23 (Also includes 2010, 11) 1990s: 6 1980s: 6 1970s: 8 1960s: 8 1950s: 6 Number of batsmen with average over 50 (qualification: 2000 runs) 2000s: 20 (Also includes 2010, 11) 1990s: 4 1980s: 5 1970s: 6 1960s: 5 1950s: 5

That still makes more sense than some of the posts in here.

Edited April 7, 2011 by carrafan

madaboutlfc · April 8, 2011

Well that would be on a complete unrelated note.

FFS, I meant to post this:
bowlers averagesbowlers averagesbowlers averagesbowlers averagesof
[/color]

batting got easier when the pitches got flatter and number of quality bowlers declined. In the past almost every major team bar India had a bowler averaging 25 or below and in the case of Pakistan, Australia, Windies and South Africa had atleast two of them. As of today its only Steyn who has those sort of stats when talking about someone with 100 or more wickets

that's just a lot of padding, deathscar

sign of Indian fan in his 40s brought up on a diet of draws are equal to wins

_00_deathscar · April 8, 2011

We all knew that more people average 50+ now than they did in the 90s etc, but the jump is still remarkable.

To use a mad (madaboutlfc) logic though, what makes Ponting special then - having never had to face the best/most dangerous bowling attack and pummelling most of his runs in the 00s when every man and his dog averaged 50+.* Samaraweera and co even average 50+ these days..in the 90s having had to play West Indies, South Africa, Australia every year or so, he'd have been lucky to average 35 I reckon.

Likewise Hayden?

Conversely, Sachin Tendulkar actually averaged 58.00 in the 90s, when the likes of Michael Atherton (class player) were struggling to average 40.

Sachin in the 90s: http://stats.espncri...s;type=allround

Sachin in 2000s (not including 2010 and 2011): http://stats.espncri...s;type=allround

Sachin in 2000s (including 2010 and 2011): http://stats.espncri...s;type=allround

*I think Ponting is great, and Hayden is not - merely a good one capable of demolishing an attack, but mostly a minnow basher.

Edited April 8, 2011 by _00_deathscar

kop205 · April 8, 2011

To use a mad (madaboutlfc) logic though, what makes Ponting special then - having never had to face the best/most dangerous bowling attack and pummelling most of his runs in the 00s when every man and his dog averaged 50+.* Samaraweera and co even average 50+ these days..in the 90s having had to play West Indies, South Africa, Australia every year or so, he'd have been lucky to average 35 I reckon.

I assume you mean Samaraweera there rather than Ponting by 'he'd have been lucky to average 35'.

Ponting is (was?) absolute class.

madaboutlfc · April 8, 2011

seriously showing up Tendulkar is getting boring.. Tendulkars record against Donald and co was poor. Id wager that Pontings record against Donald and Pollock would be better. As for Atherton being used as a barometer :lol:

_00_deathscar · April 8, 2011

I assume you mean Samaraweera there rather than Ponting by 'he'd have been lucky to average 35'.

Ponting is (was?) absolute class.

Yep -the 35 was in reference to Samaraweera. I'd also wager Ponting would have averaged less, certainly not the 55-60 he did in the 00s.

seriously showing up Tendulkar is getting boring.. Tendulkars record against Donald and co was poor. Id wager that Pontings record against Donald and Pollock would be better. As for Atherton being used as a barometer :lol:

What do you make of Sachin's record vs Australia then?

madaboutlfc · April 8, 2011

Yep -the 35 was in reference to Samaraweera. I'd also wager Ponting would have averaged less, certainly not the 55-60 he did in the 00s.

What do you make of Sachin's record vs Australia then?

There were two genuine pace attacks with quality bowlers who were 90 plus in South Africa and Pakistan. I am pretty certain that Tendulkar struggled against both of them in Test and ODIs. I seem to remember Sachin hoping around when facing Waqar and ducking when facing Donald. Its no shame though as those two were greats of the game. Sachins record against Australia is great but Aussie attack of Fleming, McGrath etc were not about pace. Ponting I think probably has a better record as his weakness has been back of length ball seaming away at pace so if anything it would be Donald who he would have struggled against.. His record against us would be phenomenal

Edited April 8, 2011 by madaboutlfc

_00_deathscar · April 8, 2011

There were two genuine pace attacks with quality bowlers who were 90 plus in South Africa and Pakistan. I am pretty certain that Tendulkar struggled against both of them in Test and ODIs. I seem to remember Sachin hoping around when facing Waqar and ducking when facing Donald. Its no shame though as those two were greats of the game. Sachins record against Australia is great but Aussie attack of Fleming, McGrath etc were not about pace. Ponting I think probably has a better record as his weakness has been back of length ball seaming away at pace so if anything it would be Donald who he would have struggled against.. His record against us would be phenomenal

Sachin hammered the f*** out of Ambrose and Walsh unless my memory fails me.

He also played a glorious 169 when all others around him (except Azhar) wilted - in South Africa, no less. But yes, he struggled on the whole vs Donald, de Villiers - South Africa in general really. He even had trouble playing Hansie Cronje.

Didn't play Pakistan enough in tests in the 90s to come to a conclusion. Played a few times in ODIs though, no?

Did fine this winter - albeit vs Steyn and co.

Ponting's record

90s - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;spanmax1=31+dec+1999;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

00s - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;spanmax1=31+dec+2010;spanmin1=1+jan+2000;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

Did very well against Pakistan, as you guessed and also well against South Africa (looking at 90s only).

Struggled vs West Indies, England and India, though not really enough tests against any nation to really come to any conclusion.

Only managed to average 44.50 in 30+ tests in the 90s though, having not had to play any one nation an exceeding amount of times to skew the stats.

Edited April 8, 2011 by _00_deathscar

Woodsyla · April 8, 2011

Well that would be on a complete unrelated note.

FFS, I meant to post this:

[/color]

Bowling has definitely dropped in standards, there are also more test matches and more tests against developing nations.

seriously showing up Tendulkar is getting boring.

When is this happening? Just to make sure I'm here for it.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Woodsyla

madaboutlfc · April 8, 2011

Sachin hammered the f*** out of Ambrose and Walsh unless my memory fails me.

He also played a glorious 169 when all others around him (except Azhar) wilted - in South Africa, no less. But yes, he struggled on the whole vs Donald, de Villiers - South Africa in general really. He even had trouble playing Hansie Cronje.

Didn't play Pakistan enough in tests in the 90s to come to a conclusion. Played a few times in ODIs though, no?

Did fine this winter - albeit vs Steyn and co.

Ponting's record

90s - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;spanmax1=31+dec+1999;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

00s - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;spanmax1=31+dec+2010;spanmin1=1+jan+2000;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

Did very well against Pakistan, as you guessed and also well against South Africa (looking at 90s only).

Struggled vs West Indies, England and India, though not really enough tests against any nation to really come to any conclusion.

Only managed to average 44.50 in 30+ tests in the 90s though, having not had to play any one nation an exceeding amount of times to skew the stats.

I would say that Tendulkars greatness is that he was toe to toe in two eras ie Lara in the 90s and Ponting as Lara was near his end.. The only batsman though who I remember Wasim Akram saying back then he thought he could not get out once he was in was Lara. I think if Lara was an Indian, Pakistani, English, SA or Australian he would have been averaging in his 60s in the current era because apart from the start he was unlucky to have s*** surrounded around him.

We played Sachin a lot in ODIs and usually always won

Edited April 8, 2011 by madaboutlfc

Woodsyla · April 8, 2011

I think if Lara was an Indian, Pakistani or Australian he would have been averaging in his 60s in the current era because apart from the start he was unlucky to have s*** surrounded around him

I disagree entirely, I think Lara is fortunate to have had a team built round him so he was able to play long innings without risking his wicket and without a captain declaring on him.

madaboutlfc · April 8, 2011

I disagree entirely, I think Lara is fortunate to have had a team built round him so he was able to play long innings without risking his wicket and without a captain declaring on him.

you are kidding right. Lara was so bored of losing that he took a hiatus

_00_deathscar · April 8, 2011

I would say that Tendulkars greatness is that he was toe to toe in two eras ie Lara in the 90s and Ponting as Lara was near his end.. The only batsman though who I remember Wasim Akram saying back then he thought he could not get out once he was in was Lara. I think if Lara was an Indian, Pakistani, English, SA or Australian he would have been averaging in his 60s in the current era because apart from the start he was unlucky to have s*** surrounded around him.

We played Sachin a lot in ODIs and usually always won

If he were Indian, he'd never have had to face the Indian bowling unit, so his average would come down immediately. It would have been interesting to see Sachin's stats if he were anything but Indian - having to face Venkatesh Prasad, Ajit Agarkar every 2-3 years. And those were two of the better ones - (not including Srinath of course). I've actually forgotten the names/blanked my memory when it comes to the other bowlers. I'm sure there were others - s***ter ones, I just can't remember their names.

I find it a myth that Lara was surrounded by s***. Richie Richardson, albeit late in his career - along came Shivairine Chanderpaul in the mid 90s and eventually Sarwan for Lara's last few years. There were also a few other handy players - none to the level of India's 00s batsmen, but still very capable players - Jimmy Adams, Carl Hooper to name but two.

For much of his career, he also had Ambrose and Walsh as a bowling unit - and Bishop for a very short while too.

He wasn't surrounded by quality, but he wasn't quite as badly let down as people believe he was either. Until the retirement of Ambrose and Walsh, West Indies always had (at the very least) the bowlers to win games - as we've established (I hope) that to win a test match requires the ability to take 20 wickets.

It is also worth noting - for statistical purposes (i.e. when statisticians start asking to remove stats involving Zimbabwe), that neither Zimbabwe nor New Zealand were as hopeless as Bangladesh and current NZ (at least in tests) are respectively.

NZ had the Flower brothers and Heath Streak, amongst other - they clearly weren't a good side, but they were far more capable of pulling off victories than the current Bangladesh team is capable of doing. The 90s New Zealand was also a far better side in tests than the current one is - with useful players like Fleming and Chris Cairns.

Edited April 8, 2011 by _00_deathscar

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