Competing on 2 Fronts

[JRC]

The latest variant of the criticism of Rafa is that we do well in Europe because we are only concentrating on one competition, whereas Chelsea, Arsenal and ManU are going at it hammer and tongs in the league as well. Whilst there may be some merit in that in respect of the teams we could field in the league in the last couple of weeks, this season it doesn't really hold up. I know we dropped some silly points in the first part of the season, but we certainly weren't 'concentrtating' on the CL at that point. The truth is that we only lost our first game a couple of days prior to our last Group stage CL game; that Reading game was a clear example of CL priorities taking precedence over the League, with Torres and Gerrard going off, but given the apparent ultimatum to Rafa, and the importance of qualifying vs the possibility of retrieving a 3-1 deficit, maybe those priorities can be rationalized.

 

Even so, as we won that Marseille game in early December 2007, we were definitely still in contention in the League - 6 points and a game in hand behind United was it? We may even have been ahead of Chelsea - they'd both dropped points early on as well, only Arsenal (and City) were forging ahead. In the following 10 weeks or so when we didn't have any CL distractions - that's where we lost it. The Barnsley defeat was our nadir, barely 3 days before we re-started in the CL with the win vs Inter. Since that point, we have been one of the form teams in the league, apart from the performance at OT.

 

So maybe - it's not that we can't compete on 2 fronts; the evidence this season is that we competed better in the League when we had the CL matches to consider as well.

[Tommok]

The latest variant of the criticism of Rafa is that we do well in Europe because we are only concentrating on one competition, whereas Chelsea, Arsenal and ManU are going at it hammer and tongs in the league as well. Whilst there may be some merit in that in respect of the teams we could field in the league in the last couple of weeks, this season it doesn't really hold up. I know we dropped some silly points in the first part of the season, but we certainly weren't 'concentrtating' on the CL at that point. The truth is that we only lost our first game a couple of days prior to our last Group stage CL game; that Reading game was a clear example of CL priorities taking precedence over the League, with Torres and Gerrard going off, but given the apparent ultimatum to Rafa, and the importance of qualifying vs the possibility of retrieving a 3-1 deficit, maybe those priorities can be rationalized.

 

Even so, as we won that Marseille game in early December 2007, we were definitely still in contention in the League - 6 points and a game in hand behind United was it? We may even have been ahead of Chelsea - they'd both dropped points early on as well, only Arsenal (and City) were forging ahead. In the following 10 weeks or so when we didn't have any CL distractions - that's where we lost it. The Barnsley defeat was our nadir, barely 3 days before we re-started in the CL with the win vs Inter. Since that point, we have been one of the form teams in the league, apart from the performance at OT.

 

So maybe - it's not that we can't compete on 2 fronts; the evidence this season is that we competed better in the League when we had the CL matches to consider as well.

 

The more pertinent question might be why Riise can't kick with 2 feet

[Guest Rafa's Receding Hairline]

Not with this squad we can't.

 

Not with players like Riise and Voronin we can't.

 

Now with these owners we can't.

 

Not with Abramovich we can't.

 

Not with Man Utd paying 20 million for an unproven midfielder we can't,

[Ginu]

Think about the attacking talent that those clubs boast and compare it to ours. Other than Torres and Gerrard, nobody scores goals on the regular. You can't compete on two fronts without top drawer players who are going to make something out of nothing and have the mentality that they're not satisfied with drawing or losing.

 

Comparison of attacking players:

MUN: Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs (Nani, Anderson)

LIV: Torres, Gerrard, (Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun)

ARS: Adebayor, van Persie, Hleb, Walcott, (Bendtner)

CHE: Drogba, Cole, Kalou, Anelka, Lampard, Ballack

 

in brackets are those players that are either young or haven't put the ball in the net on a regular basis this season. The exception really is Hleb who creates a lot of the chances for Arsenal.

 

It's not rocket-science why we're 4th.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Ginu

[baz2107]

I think the big problem is overall quality in the first 11. We have the quality to match the other top 3 throughout the spine of the team in my opinion (GK, Centre backs, centre midfield, centre forward (most sides play with one up) The difference for me are the full backs and the wide players. They simply do not compare. The likes of Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Aurelio would all be decent cover for the full back positions but not first choice, and the same goes for Pennant, Kuyt and Benayoun, I also believe Babel would have learnt more had he had 2 quality players in the wide positions to compete with and just get the 30 mins or so to improve rather than be relied on (similar to what the Mancs have done with Nani)

 

In the summer we need to buy quality to replace squad players, the squad size is ok (maybe even too large) but the quality is not good enough.

 

Personally I'd bring in 1 top quality winger to play week in week out, and sell Pennant or Benayoun

 

and I'd bring in 2 attacking full backs who are solid but also good on the ball, and sell Riise, Aurelio and either Arbeloa/Finnan (the other along with Insua stay as back up)

 

We need these players with the extra attacking impetus to turn the games we've drawn into wins, I feel this is how close we are to really competing and as for competing on all fronts its not as if we've given up on the league results since February its only been the last 2 games, we'd been fighting for 4th until then, and I'm sure we could've seen the league out (had it been necessary) and not rested players for Fulham/Birmingham if we'd needed to, but at the end of the day there was no point in risking them

[meepins]

In the summer we need to buy quality to replace squad players, the squad size is ok (maybe even too large) but the quality is not good enough.

 

Personally I'd bring in 1 top quality winger to play week in week out, and sell Pennant or Benayoun

 

and I'd bring in 2 attacking full backs who are solid but also good on the ball, and sell Riise, Aurelio and either Arbeloa/Finnan (the other along with Insua stay as back up)

All that and another striker around Fernando's level , preferably David Villa however realistic that is, that is if we are truly aspiring to be top dogs.

[Magic8Ball]

I think the big problem is overall quality in the first 11. We have the quality to match the other top 3 throughout the spine of the team in my opinion (GK, Centre backs, centre midfield, centre forward (most sides play with one up) The difference for me are the full backs and the wide players. They simply do not compare. The likes of Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Aurelio would all be decent cover for the full back positions but not first choice, and the same goes for Pennant, Kuyt and Benayoun, I also believe Babel would have learnt more had he had 2 quality players in the wide positions to compete with and just get the 30 mins or so to improve rather than be relied on (similar to what the Mancs have done with Nani)

 

In the summer we need to buy quality to replace squad players, the squad size is ok (maybe even too large) but the quality is not good enough.

 

Personally I'd bring in 1 top quality winger to play week in week out, and sell Pennant or Benayoun

 

and I'd bring in 2 attacking full backs who are solid but also good on the ball, and sell Riise, Aurelio and either Arbeloa/Finnan (the other along with Insua stay as back up)

 

We need these players with the extra attacking impetus to turn the games we've drawn into wins, I feel this is how close we are to really competing and as for competing on all fronts its not as if we've given up on the league results since February its only been the last 2 games, we'd been fighting for 4th until then, and I'm sure we could've seen the league out (had it been necessary) and not rested players for Fulham/Birmingham if we'd needed to, but at the end of the day there was no point in risking them

this is the problem for me, we are finally in the position where we need to buy 2 players to really stand a chance, only 2 --- but they are attacking players and would cost a lot. If we had the normal 30m transfer budget we could do it, but with the americans messing things up we may miss our chance

[Kuyt-fever]

We cannot.

 

The standard of opposition is such that competitng against a Chelsea team that is so powerful and a SAF who is obsessed on 4 different fronts is just something we cannot do. Both Chelsea and United wen out the FA cup early and were able to go one step further as a result in the CL. To win the league we'd have to go out of the CL before the Semi finals in my opinion.

[Old red eyes]

We cannot.

 

The standard of opposition is such that competitng against a Chelsea team that is so powerful and a SAF who is obsessed on 4 different fronts is just something we cannot do. Both Chelsea and United wen out the FA cup early and were able to go one step further as a result in the CL. To win the league we'd have to go out of the CL before the Semi finals in my opinion.

 

We went out of the F.A cup before Chelsea.

[Nebraska Red]

we need better players, end of story.

 

we have too many "OK" players and we play way too defensively in too many games.

 

we also fail to compete enough when we play the big 3 and we seem to have a lack of belief in ourselves.

 

we have dominated games this eason and failed to win on way too many occasions, drawing many and losing a few we could have won.

 

our approach in many games has been negative, but that is down to the lack of overall quality in the squad.

 

deadwood out and some very good players in, PLEASE!!!

[Cam]

All season the media have been banging on about how it's impossible to challenge for the league and CL at the same time. Will the final being the Mancs and Chelsea finally shut them up?

[JRC]

All good discussions, but my original point was that we have performed better in the League this year when we also had the distraction of CL games - since Feb, for example, our League form has been very good, even with huge CL games coming thick and fast. The gap on the leaders mainly came when we didn't have any CL games. Whilst the overall argument about squad depth of quality (or lack of it) impacting our performances in all competitions seems strong over a whole season, this trend goes against it - you would expect our form in the league to be at its best in December and January. I'm not even sure we rotated or rested players as much in that period (other than for FA Cup games). I'm perfectly open to an alternative explanation, simply pointing out an apparent paradox.

[Spike]

I believe that we can, with the right additions, compete on two fronts

[honourablegeorge]

Fact is, we were never going to challenge for the league this season. The new players would need time, nobobdy could have forecasted the way that Torres would settle, Babel's still hugely raw, and we're still short on quality in several positions.

 

Rafa prioritised the CL, even as far back as the Reading game. He was criticised for not prioritising the league at the time, though in hindsight, it was wishful thinking.

[RedNik]

Think about the attacking talent that those clubs boast and compare it to ours. Other than Torres and Gerrard, nobody scores goals on the regular. You can't compete on two fronts without top drawer players who are going to make something out of nothing and have the mentality that they're not satisfied with drawing or losing.

 

Comparison of attacking players:

MUN: Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs (Nani, Anderson)

LIV: Torres, Gerrard, (Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun)

ARS: Adebayor, van Persie, Hleb, Walcott, (Bendtner)

CHE: Drogba, Cole, Kalou, Anelka, Lampard, Ballack

 

in brackets are those players that are either young or haven't put the ball in the net on a regular basis this season. The exception really is Hleb who creates a lot of the chances for Arsenal.

 

It's not rocket-science why we're 4th.

 

Nail on the head there for me.

 

Man U have many potential goal scorers.

 

Arsenal - not so much, and this whole season, they've been a little lucky with late goals and comebacks, and have eventually fallen off the pace.

 

Chelsea have goal scorers and a wonderful bench. More importantly, they don't concede, especially at home, and can usually close out games.

 

In our case, our defending wasn't as good as usual this season - we gave away goals, and often leads. This compounded with having really only 2 scorers really hurt us. Crouch didn't get integrated enough imo, and Kuyt struggled this year, with family problems etc. Goals from midfield were also hard to come by aside from Gerrard and Babel (Yossi scored some, but usually in blowouts).

[Hassony]

Chelsea have goal scorers and a wonderful bench. More importantly, they don't concede, especially at home, and can usually close out games.

 

they have conceded 25 goals to our 28 goals this season

[Knoxy]

Think about the attacking talent that those clubs boast and compare it to ours. Other than Torres and Gerrard, nobody scores goals on the regular. You can't compete on two fronts without top drawer players who are going to make something out of nothing and have the mentality that they're not satisfied with drawing or losing.

 

Comparison of attacking players:

MUN: Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs (Nani, Anderson)

LIV: Torres, Gerrard, (Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun)

ARS: Adebayor, van Persie, Hleb, Walcott, (Bendtner)

CHE: Drogba, Cole, Kalou, Anelka, Lampard, Ballack

 

in brackets are those players that are either young or haven't put the ball in the net on a regular basis this season. The exception really is Hleb who creates a lot of the chances for Arsenal.

 

It's not rocket-science why we're 4th.

 

Scholes and Giggs have contributed sod all in terms of goals this season, our 3 players in brackets have scored over 30 goals.

 

Don't disagree with the general gist of the post however. We still need better wide options