Which games should Torres NOT play in?

[Maldini]

We're hopefully going to play 60+ games this season, which games should Torres (and Gerrard for that matter) not play in? He clearly can't play every game without getting injured or suffering a slump in form so we have to "drop" him some times, which games should they be in?

 

I reckon Rafa figured that towards the end of the season we will be playing a lot of important games and so Torres will need to play a very high percentage of those games. Let's say we're still in for all 4 trophies come March, is that the time we start "dropping" him? Personally I would have started him because I think with Chelsea and United playing each other this was a chance to widen the gap on one or both of them.

 

I think Rafa was thinking pragmatically (as ever) and figured that a game against one of the weakest teams in the league, when the team is playing relatively well, is a good time to "drop" Torres, especially as we had an otherwise full-strength team.

 

Rotation is a calculated risk, sometimes you're going to lose, but you win more than you do playing your strongest team every weak, because if you play your strongest team every week you get far more injuries (and you have the play other players for a longer period of time) and your best players suffer far more slumps in form.

[Falconhoof]

Its too early in the season to be resting anyone who isn't injured.

Get past Christmas in the lead or as close as possible and use the confidence gained to make a few alterations.

[Guest RedIsMyColour]

Whats the point of saving players for tough games at the end of the season, when we'll be out of the running anyway. Like usual.

[Lee W]

We're hopefully going to play 60+ games this season, which games should Torres (and Gerrard for that matter) not play in? He clearly can't play every game without getting injured or suffering a slump in form so we have to "drop" him some times, which games should they be in?

 

I reckon Rafa figured that towards the end of the season we will be playing a lot of important games and so Torres will need to play a very high percentage of those games. Let's say we're still in for all 4 trophies come March, is that the time we start "dropping" him? Personally I would have started him because I think with Chelsea and United playing each other this was a chance to widen the gap on one or both of them.

 

I think Rafa was thinking pragmatically (as ever) and figured that a game against one of the weakest teams in the league, when the team is playing relatively well, is a good time to "drop" Torres, especially as we had an otherwise full-strength team.

 

Rotation is a calculated risk, sometimes you're going to lose, but you win more than you do playing your strongest team every weak, because if you play your strongest team every week you get far more injuries (and you have the play other players for a longer period of time) and your best players suffer far more slumps in form.

 

The last two games we have been dreadful.

 

Forget the Carling Cup and FA Cup for Torres for a start.

 

We needed to restore some confidence today after being lacklustre against Portsmouth and Porto......so Rafa starts with our best striker on the bench.

[Sion]

He should play as many games as possible then be rested if he gets tired.

[Guest Sabre]

Whats the point of saving players for tough games at the end of the season, when we'll be out of the running anyway. Like usual.

 

You say that as if it is fact. Maldini makes a fair point and although I can understand your point of view, the two teams we have put out against Portsmouth and Birmingham were both good enough to win without Torres.

[Guest RedIsMyColour]

You say that as if it is fact. Maldini makes a fair point and although I can understand your point of view, the two teams we have put out against Portsmouth and Birmingham were both good enough to win without Torres.

 

I fully understand his point but now not the time, its very early in the season. Players should be rested mid season as someone has pointed out.

[Knox_Harrington]

Forget the Carling Cup and FA Cup for Torres for a start.

Yes.

 

Start to worry about playing him in anything but the league when we hit the last sixteen in Europe. Up till then he should play every league game he's fit for.

 

To what end was he rested today? Is he seriously going to start against Reading? He can play Tuesday - Saturday - Saturday, surely?

[Earl Hafler]

We're hopefully going to play 60+ games this season, which games should Torres (and Gerrard for that matter) not play in? He clearly can't play every game without getting injured or suffering a slump in form so we have to "drop" him some times, which games should they be in?

 

I reckon Rafa figured that towards the end of the season we will be playing a lot of important games and so Torres will need to play a very high percentage of those games. Let's say we're still in for all 4 trophies come March, is that the time we start "dropping" him? Personally I would have started him because I think with Chelsea and United playing each other this was a chance to widen the gap on one or both of them.

 

I think Rafa was thinking pragmatically (as ever) and figured that a game against one of the weakest teams in the league, when the team is playing relatively well, is a good time to "drop" Torres, especially as we had an otherwise full-strength team.

 

Rotation is a calculated risk, sometimes you're going to lose, but you win more than you do playing your strongest team every weak, because if you play your strongest team every week you get far more injuries (and you have the play other players for a longer period of time) and your best players suffer far more slumps in form.

 

Start with him. If we're winning then take him off.

 

If he goes a few games without playing well then bench him.

 

 

I despise benching players when they're in form.

[usualsuspect]

Whats the point of saving players for tough games at the end of the season, when we'll be out of the running anyway. Like usual.

 

Absolutely agree. The idea also assumes the player is in form during then. In my opinion if the player is in form and its this early in the season.. play him, particularly for league games.

 

Its hard not to get the notion that Rafa is out to prove people wrong regarding his rotation policy. Media focus doen't make it any easier.

Edited September 22, 2007 by usualsuspect

[Maldini]

Whats the point of saving players for tough games at the end of the season, when we'll be out of the running anyway. Like usual.

 

This is the problem, when you're going for the league there's no good time to rest players, but it has to be done st some stage. My point was that I think Rafa just thought a game while the rest of the team is in form against a weak team was a good time. I'd rather rest him against Brum now than against Brum on the last day of the season if you know what I mean. Like I say, I would have start him today, but I can sort of understand why he didn't.

 

He should play as many games as possible then be rested if he gets tired.

 

...or injured, so we don't have the option. Rotation is 90% about avoiding injuries.

[realtarragona]

Porto and Reading

[psl]

Yes.

 

Start to worry about playing him in anything but the league when we hit the last sixteen in Europe. Up till then he should play every league game he's fit for.

 

To what end was he rested today? Is he seriously going to start against Reading? He can play Tuesday - Saturday - Saturday, surely?

 

Indeed. Just can't work out why he wasn't playing today.

[D.Boon]

My point was that I think Rafa just thought a game while the rest of the team is in form against a weak team was a good time.

 

Id hate to see us when we are not in form

[Knox_Harrington]

This is the problem, when you're going for the league there's no good time to rest players, but it has to be done st some stage. My point was that I think Rafa just thought a game while the rest of the team is in form against a weak team was a good time. I'd rather rest him against Brum now than against Brum on the last day of the season if you know what I mean. Like I say, I would have start him today, but I can sort of understand why he didn't.

Look at Drogba and Ronaldo, the two players who were the difference between us and them last season. They played. Whenever possible, they played.

 

It isn't even as complicated as that - most would prefer we played Torres Pompey/Birmingham than Porto. There's two reasons, one is Crouch's European record and the second is an awareness that momentum, and Torres' part in that as our best forward will be best rewarded in the league.

 

No one is against rotation, Maldini, and most agree totally with your arguments in favour of it but to argue there's only one way to rotate, Rafa's, is ridiculous. If we had the season of my/our dreams I'd have Torres play one league cup game, two FA Cup games, six European games (rested for one knockout) and thirty eight league games (presuming we win it on the last day) and if you are seriously saying that 47 starts (where he doesn't have to play ninety minutes) in a highly unlikely quadruple winning season is too many then what's the right amount of starts for our best forward?

Edited September 22, 2007 by Knox_Harrington

[Sion]

Indeed. Just can't work out why he wasn't playing today.

 

Rafa's admitted it was tactical, which is even more bizarre. He actually thought Torres wouldn't be as effective as Voronin and Kuyt, when it seems everyone else could see he would be.

[D.Boon]

Rafa's admitted it was tactical, which is even more bizarre. He actually thought Torres wouldn't be as effective as Voronin and Kuyt, when it seems everyone else could see he would be.

 

Tactical to lesson your chances of scoring.

 

Rafa shure is a stubborn, puzzling fella

[Coyler]

Can I exaggerate my true views by about 15% to throw a devil's advocate shape here?

 

Torres was relatively ponderous and ineffective in the last two thirty-minute run-outs he was given in English games.

 

I was sort of expecting him to change games when given that amount of time.

[realtarragona]

He did more today in 30 mins than Kuyt and Voronin did all game. Combined.

[genghis]

I've tried to take a breath and think about this, but can't see any justification for not playing our best team.

 

What will be the point in keeping Torres super-fresh if, say, in a month's time he gets knobbled by a Savage or a Neill and is out for 8 weeks? We'll certainly wish he'd played in every game to that point, as he'd suddenly have an 8 week rest. Or what (as said above) if he suddenly hits a massive trough of form where he can't hit a cow's a*** with a banjo, but is really fresh & fit? Not much good either is it?

 

As Big Stuff said, when a player looks really on form, you play him, and you just wing it later down the line if your top players get tired - that's when you 'prove' you've got strength in depth. Playing the lesser players when your best ones are available is acting as if the sh*t has hit the fan when it hasn't.

 

Use the players to get the points in the bag while you can. 3 points today against Brum counts just the same as 3 points in April away against Spurs (for instance). Why worry about not being able to compete for the latter in the future at the expense of not actually getting the former now?

[Knox_Harrington]

Can I exaggerate my true views by about 15% to throw a devil's advocate shape here?

 

Torres was relatively ponderous and ineffective in the last two thirty-minute run-outs he was given in English games.

 

I was sort of expecting him to change games when given that amount of time.

Thought he looked much livelier than Voronin or Kuyt did when up top. Regardless it's rock to get into a game with thirty to go.

 

You see the name on the team sheet you drop five yards because you know he'll hurt you for pace. And it gives us a lift. And the crowd a lift. And those of us who fancy him a lift.

[Coyler]

He did more today in 30 mins than Kuyt and Voronin did all game. Combined.

Scored twice as many as them combined as well.

[Earl Hafler]

Indeed. Just can't work out why he wasn't playing today.

 

Rafa has just said he thought Kuyt and Voronin would play better against a packed defence.

[Maldini]

Look at Drogba and Ronaldo, the two players who were the difference between us and them last season. They played. Whenever possible, they played.

 

It isn't even as complicated as that - most would prefer we played Torres Pompey/Birmingham than Porto. There's two reasons, one is Crouch's European record and the second is an awareness that momentum, and Torres' part in that as our best forward will be best rewarded in the league.

 

No one is against rotation, Maldini, and most agree totally with your arguments in favour of it but to argue there's only one way to rotate, Rafa's, is ridiculous. If we had the season of my/our dreams I'd have Torres play one league cup game, two FA Cup games, six European games (rested for one knockout) and thirty eight league games (presuming we win it on the last day) and if you are seriously saying that 47 starts (where he doesn't have to play ninety minutes) in a highly unlikely quadruple winning season is too many then what's the right amount of starts for our best forward?

 

I agree with all that, I'm trying to understand Rafa's reasons for it more than anything else. I can understand him not wanting players to play 3 times in a week, but twice is more than do-able. I think there are times when Torres/Gerrard will have to be rested though, and people will have to get used to it. Today was a mistake, I don't think it was quite as egregious as people are making out though.

 

Scored twice as many as them combined as well.

 

Edited September 22, 2007 by Maldini

[Coyler]

I agree with all that, I'm trying to understand Rafa's reasons for it more than anything else.

He hasn't scored, whatever about game situations when he eventually came on, against either of the last two teams he was picked on the bench for. I want to believe that SOME of the reason for that is that he wasn't tactically suited to those teams, and that Rafa's rationale had a sound basis (because the alternative is to believe that Rafa is a looney).

 

Then again, why did he bother bringing him on if he knew he wouldn't score ... ?