A History Question - Help Needed

[Gary Wolf]

Recently I've been asked to write an essay about the early history of LFC for the Russian site.

Coming to the issue of 1914 FA Cup final, I've encountered a problem - couldn't find any substancial report of the game. The Clarets provided me with a good article, but it was written by a Burnley-supporting reporter (though very-well written)

May be someone here can give me a link to a LFC version?

And I'm also interested in having more information about that famous MU vs LFC game in 1915 that ended up with numerous bans for players from both sides.

[Cobs]

so even the media of 1914 had it in for us ?

[Gary Wolf]

so even the media of 1914 had it in for us ?

I think that's just because Burnley fans, this being their only FA Cup win, care about it a lot, while Liverpool after winning so many tropheys have just forgotten about their first unsuccessful attempt.

As to the quality of the article, you may judge for yourself http://www.claretsmad.co.uk/news/loadfeat....23&id=20268

[Sir Tokyo Sexwale]

Murph should know - he & his teenage kid were seasies back then

[Coyler]

http://www.claretsmad.co.uk/news/loadfeat....23&id=20268

Good read!

 

Billy Lacey was playing for Liverpool that day, the bould Yellowbelly.

[heighway]

If you have access to the Times Digital Archive you can find a match report there too. If you don't have access, I can email you a copy of the page

[Alonso]

This is a link to the game from lfchistory who are a pretty comprehensive site. Dunno whether it may be asking anyone on there.

 

Click here

[Guest Stephen King]

There's a bit on both in The Hamlyn Illustrated History of Liverpool by Stephen F Kelly.

[Gary Wolf]

If you have access to the Times Digital Archive you can find a match report there too. If you don't have access, I can email you a copy of the page

Thanks a lot! You will really help me out

Here's my email address: gary_wolf@mail.ru

 

This is a link to the game from lfchistory who are a pretty comprehensive site. Dunno whether it may be asking anyone on there.

 

Click here

Actually that's where I started. Normally when I want a hint about LFC history that's the best place to go, but not this time. Here we have only LFC lineup and some basic facts in the article "Unique Programs"

 

 

There's a bit on both in The Hamlyn Illustrated History of Liverpool by Stephen F Kelly.

I know that a good book is the best thing. But it's rather difficult to get one sitting so far away in Russia. Probably someone can help me out

[heighway]

Thanks a lot! You will really help me out

Here's my email address: gary_wolf@mail.ru

 

Sent. I was flitting through one or two other small articles in the Times around the Cup Final and it's funny to read in their preview piece that they want Burnley to win because their team is mostly homegrown players whereas Liverpool is full of foreigners -i.e. Scots!

 

Also there was a snippet about the catering for the Cup Final. The list of ingredients included:

75 rumps of beef

100 shins of mutton

150 hams

1 and a half tons of pressed beef

1 and a half tons potatoes

12000 sandwiches

2500 veal and ham pies

48000 slices of cake

12000 bottles of beer

2000 gallons of beer

[L19red]

Thanks a lot! You will really help me out

Here's my email address: gary_wolf@mail.ru

Actually that's where I started. Normally when I want a hint about LFC history that's the best place to go, but not this time. Here we have only LFC lineup and some basic facts in the article "Unique Programs"

I know that a good book is the best thing. But it's rather difficult to get one sitting so far away in Russia. Probably someone can help me out

another book with a report of the game is brian pead's Liverpool - A Complete History

[Coyler]

Sent. I was flitting through one or two other small articles in the Times around the Cup Final and it's funny to read in their preview piece that they want Burnley to win because their team is mostly homegrown players whereas Liverpool is full of foreigners -i.e. Scots!

'Twas ever thus!

 

(Except nowadays )

[Guest Stephen King]

Just copied this from the Illustrated history. It's not word for word it probably won't read too well. But you get the jist.

 

FA Cup final 1914 Liverpool V Burnley

 

Liverpools opponents in the final were North Lancashire neighbours Burnley. Both competing in the final for the first time. Burnley had finished the season 4 places higher in the league than Liverpool. Good game in prospect. King George the V was to present the trophy the first time a reigning monarch had attended the final. "London invaded" headline in Sunday Times. Officially more than 72,000 crammed into Crystal Palace Ground, last time it was used as a cup final venue some papers estimated 100,000 20,000 being Liverpool fans. Fans spotted on top of telegraph poles. and up trees. Cup run earnt Liverpool £9000 with a 1/4 of a million people watching. The Liverpool football echo published for the first time a special cup final edition with features and photographs of the players as well as team news predictions etc. The Liverpool team arrived in London on the Monday for a quiet few days at Chingford and travelled to the ground on the day. Liverpools club captain wasn't playing(doesn't say why) so they called on the one-time third Lanark player Bob Ferguson to assume his role. 2 other former Third Lanark players Tom Fairfoul and Tom Miller played along with another 4 Scots Don McKinlay a half back who had joined LFC in 1909. later captained the team and won 2 scottish caps. the rest of the team comprised John Shedon and Henry Lowe from Derbyshire Lowe being a former Manchester United player, who apparently was understudy to Billy Mredith. Arthur Metcalfe had come from Newcastle United in 1912 scoring 14 times in his first 28 appearances The King who sported a red Lancashire rose in his lapel was delayed by crowd congestion. Liverpool played against a strong breeze and Nicholl missed an open goal for Liverpool who started well. Moments later a fierce shot from the Scotsmn almost knocked Burnley full back Taylor into the back of the net Taylor lay stunned for some moments. Miller screwed a good oppurtunity wide. Liverpool looked the sturdier side but Burnley looked threatening on the breakaway and Lindley struck the bar. After a goaless first half Liverpool came out determined to finish the job. They now had the wind and the sun shone brightly but the goal just wouldn't come. 13 minutes into the second half Freeman scored for Burnley. Freeman drove in a tremedous volley from a throw-in. It was a fitting goal to win the cup Liverpool continued to plug away but the Burnley defence remained solid. and chances were few. At the final whistle the score remained 1- 0 and as the Liverpool players were handed their runners up medals by his majesty they could perhaps reckon themselves a trifle unlucky to have lost rather a dour match. But at least they had reached the final and when they returned home, it was as if they had won the cup with thousands turning out to give them a tumultuous welcome. Bad luck was to dog Liverpool in the cup for a long time and it would be 36 years before another Liverpool team would grace a final and fifty-one before the cup would come home to Anfield.

 

Liverpool Campbell, Longworth, Purcell, Fairfoul, Ferguson, McKinlay, Sheldon, Metcalfe, Miller, Lacey, Nicholl.

 

Burnley Sewell, Bamford, Taylor, Halley, Boyle, Watson, Nesbitt, Lindley, Freeman, Hodgson, Mosscrop.

[heighway]

And I'm also interested in having more information about that famous MU vs LFC game in 1915 that ended up with numerous bans for players from both sides.

 

Came across an article that covers it here

[Boca]

Good read!

 

Billy Lacey was playing for Liverpool that day, the bould Yellowbelly.

 

...who went on to play for Norn Iron.

[Coyler]

...who went on to play for Norn Iron.

He never played for "Northern Ireland".

 

He was playing for Ireland at the time of the FA Cup Final, and after the partition of Ireland he was picked for and played for all-Ireland Irish team, the IFA team, "Ireland". He then played three matches for the FAI team, the Free State team, at the very end of his career when he was back playing for Shels.

 

This is not to say he wasn't a Prod, by the way.

 

At last! A Wexfordman Des might relate to ... he spent lots of time in East Belfast, too.

[Boca]

He never played for "Northern Ireland".

 

He was playing for Ireland at the time of the FA Cup Final, and after the partition of Ireland he was picked for and played for all-Ireland Irish team, the IFA team, "Ireland". He then played three matches for the FAI team, the Free State team, at the very end of his career when he was back playing for Shels.

 

This is not to say he wasn't a Prod, by the way.

 

At last! A Wexfordman Des might relate to ... he spent lots of time in East Belfast, too.

 

Interesting article on it here

 

Liverpool and Northern Ireland: Quality Over Quantity

 

When Jim Magilton was a trainee at Anfield, it was hoped that the boy would be able to break into the first team. Instead he found himself transferred to Oxford, having been as close as any Ulsterman to turn out for the Reds since the 1930s. It is now over 70 years since a Northern Irish International has played a senior game for Liverpool, and the prestige of playing for both belongs to only three men. However what Liverpool may have lacked in quantity, they made up for in quality.

 

Billy Lacey was no stranger to success. A member of Liverpool?s title winning teams of 1922 and 1923, he was also an integral part of the 1914 British Championship team. It was the first time the honour had come to Belfast, and it didn?t return until a Noel Brotherston goal against Wales in 1980 saw Billy Bingham?s men lift the trophy. Born in Co. Wexford at a time when the Irish FA could select any player from the whole island, Lacey went on to win 23 caps, scoring 3 times. He didn?t represent the FAI until the ripe old age of 37, and remains their oldest player to make a debut and their oldest player of all time on his last appearance, aged 41.

A tricky winger, he made 230 league appearances for Liverpool after his transfer from local rivals Everton. Not renowned for his goal-scoring ability, scoring only 18 league goals, he clearly had an affinity with the FA Cup, scoring 11 times in just 28 matches. Lacey left for New Brighton in 1924, leaving behind his international colleague, Elisha Scott, arguably the greatest goalkeeper to play for the Reds. Joining Liverpool in 1912, he remains the longest serving player in their history, playing for over 20 years. His ability cannot be questioned, nor should it be forgotten. One contemporary reporter wrote of him; ?He has the eye of an eagle, the swift movement of a panther when flinging himself at a shot and the clutch of a vice when gripping the ball.? He was held in high esteem by the Kopites, and in 1924 when he pulled off a spectacular save against Blackburn, one supporter ran onto the pitch to kiss him! He had a good friendship with record breaking Dixie Dean, who was a great goal-scorer for Everton. Their battles on the pitch were great spectacles and well anticipated, much like the great Ian Wright versus Peter Schmeichel contests of the late 90s. One story tells of Scott and Dean meeting each other in town one day. When Dean nodded to Scott in acknowledgment, Scott dived through a shop window to save the imaginary ball! After leaving Liverpool he returned to Belfast as player manager of Belfast Celtic, and was in charge of their farewell tour in America in 1953, where they famously beat Scotland ? A feat the international team of that time couldn?t achieve.

 

Aghadowey-born Sam English completes the trio of connections. Having scored 44 goals in the 1931/32 season for Glasgow Rangers, a club record which is still held today, he left Scottish football after a freak accident with Celtic goalkeeper Johnny Thomson which left the latter dead. Hounded out by opposition fans who refused to recognise his innocence, the centre forward joined Liverpool in August 1933, and went onto score 26 goals in 50 appearances. His goal ratio carried through to international football, being capped twice by the Irish FA and scoring once, against Wales.

 

Next time you find yourself on a plane to Liverpool; don?t expect to be travelling with some local footballers, ready to make their mark at Anfield. Somehow, I don?t think Rafa Benitez is planning on using his Dubai investment to send some scouts over to Linfield versus Limavady. Apparently the Spanish don?t like Windsor Park . . .

[Coyler]

I was saying the other day, for a club from a city with such Irish connexions as Liverpool, there have been remarkably few Irish players over the years.

 

I count 19 on LFCHistory.net (there's a few missing from there, some geezer with an O'-surname from Mullinavat I came across on some other site that played two or three matches): 6 of those played 3 games or less.

 

After Sam English, Sammy Smyth played in the 50s but never got capped by the IFA. Heighway was the next one then and then you got your Whelans and your Beglins, etc., up to your Finnans.

 

Of the more-than-three-games Irishmen before Sam English you had Lacey (Wexford) and Scott (Belfast), natch, David Hannah from Down in the 1800s, David McMullan from Belfast, and Billy Millar from Ballymena.

 

Hardly fits with the "Liverpool have historically had a tradition of great Irish players" crap you hear the odd time.

 

Elisha Scott - legend. Billy Lacey - bit of a legend in his day. Then nothing until Heighway and then the underrated Whelan.

[Boca]

I was saying the other day, for a club from a city with such Irish connexions as Liverpool, there have been remarkably few Irish players over the years.

 

I count 19 on LFCHistory.net (there's a few missing from there, some geezer with an O'-surname from Mullinavat I came across on some other site that played two or three matches): 6 of those played 3 games or less.

 

After Sam English, Sammy Smyth played in the 50s but never got capped by the IFA. Heighway was the next one then and then you got your Whelans and your Beglins, etc., up to your Finnans.

 

Of the more-than-three-games Irishmen before Sam English you had Lacey (Wexford) and Scott (Belfast), natch, David Hannah from Down in the 1800s, David McMullan from Belfast, and Billy Millar from Ballymena.

 

Hardly fits with the "Liverpool have historically had a tradition of great Irish players" crap you hear the odd time.

 

Elisha Scott - legend. Billy Lacey - bit of a legend in his day. Then nothing until Heighway and then the underrated Whelan.

 

Can't believe you left Partrige and Potter out of that legends list.

[Coyler]

Can't believe you left Partrige and Potter out of that legends list.

Partridge goes without saying, ffs, and I didn't include plastic second-generation Paddies.

[John am Rhein]

And I'm also interested in having more information about that famous MU vs LFC game in 1915 that ended up with numerous bans for players from both sides.

 

Wasn't that the 2nd battle of Ypres?

 

 

I was saying the other day, for a club from a city with such Irish connexions as Liverpool, there have been remarkably few Irish players over the years.

 

You see now, da fing is...we tend to go fer, like...GOOD players

[magneto]

Are there more South Africans who have played for Liverpool than Irishmen?

 

I know for a fact that outside the British Isles, South Africa has more representatives than any other at LFC.

[Cobs]

how many Saffers have we had then ?

[anny road]

how many Saffers have we had then ?

 

 

Neiwenhuys

Hodgson

Dundee

 

erm

[Gary Wolf]

 

Elisha Scott - legend. Billy Lacey - bit of a legend in his day. Then nothing until Heighway and then the underrated Whelan.

Houghton?