kop205

Which is pretty much all that I was saying really. Anyway, f*** it, not going to worry about something I have no control over, nor am I going to pretend that I have a monopoly on the truth.

Kromkamp is cuptied. He played for Villareal in the group stages.

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All of which is fine, but you still don't answer my main point which was that, at the moment, with no investment coming in, it would be foolish to commit £200 million to a new stadium. You are the one who is struggling to see things. In an ideal world, we'd build a fantastic and atmospheric new stadium with a much increased capacity but given that we don't have the financial clout to do that maybe there is a need to consider alternatives. Sorry for trying to be constructive. But surely if the stadium plan is ditched then some of the money set aside for it could be made available? And if redeveloping Anfield is completely out of the question, why have the club been buying up properties? Genuine questions. I'm sure you'll have decent answers 'cos you seem to be in the know to some extent.

Did I miss something? Was your original post a pisstake? Otherwise, why not actually try answering the points I made and explain why you disagree with them?

Apparently the release clause is 12m if they don't qualify for Europe, though I can't swear to the truth of that.

'We're going to die'?! Questionable choice of terminology, to say the least. I really, honestly don't think a new stadium would solve all (or even any) of our perceived problems. Why would a new manager be less likely to come here if we are still at Anfield? If anything, might not the reputation of the stadium do something to attract him? And pumping a load of money into building a new ground would, in the short term at least, have a negative impact on our ability to provide adequate transfer funds - which, if the papers are to be believed, could mean 'Bye-bye Rafa'. Committing to bulding a new ground before we've secured investment is crazy. I really think that as things stand at present, our futre is best served by staying where we are. That isn't 'sycophantic nostalgia'. When the standing Kop went, my instinct was that we might as well move so I'm open to the idea in principle. As time has gone on though, the proposals have seemed less and less practical. That would be expensive too, but the fact that the club have bought up so many properties around the ground suggests they do have it in mind as a contingency plan. Can't figure out whether you are joking there! Wouldn't the new gorund only be 55,000? So it would only be about 10,000 extra seats?

The impact that atmosphere has on the team and result can sometimes be overstated but I defy anyone to tell me that the fans didn't play a huge, huge part in the Olympiakos, Juve and (particularly) the Chelsea games last year. I left the ground after the semi KNOWING that I had just contributed to that result, as did 40,000 or so other peolple. For me, Anfield as it is now is a bigger asset to us than a slightly larger ground would be. Just listen to the way that players (our own and those of other clubs) talk about the place. I think it is madness to chuck that away (and it would be chucked away) for the sake of 10,00 extra seats that would probably be empty for a fair few games anyway. I don't like the 'twelth man' tag or talk of retiring the no.12 because it is all a bit too self-congratulatory, but the fact of the matter is that there are times when the crowd have a bigger impact than any player can.

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Don't forget that Dynamo Dogs*** have won 1-0 at Anfield in the 3rd Qualifying round for the last two years. There is an accident waiting to happen there.

Why? Surely we could use the money we would save from not building a stadium towards buying players?

You are the f***ing wacko mate. If the inspiration for the banner didn't come from the kinds of things that lots of other European clubs use, then where did it come from? Oh, sorry, I forgot - it was inspired by the neo-facist leanings of the people who designed it, wasn't it? And yes, I know you weren't actually saying that. I know that your point was that it could be interpreted as a neo-facist symbol rather than actually being intended as one. But my point was that it could just as easily be interpreted as a symbol of our European heritage (and the fact that we consider oursleves in many ways more of a 'European' club, and more akin to Milan, Barca and the likes, than an English one). Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of our club would understand that. If you donlt like it then fine. I agree that the time and effort put into it doesn't per se spare it form criticism. But the neo-facist slant is just b******s, plain and simple. No, arrogant to decide that it wasn't simply enough to say that 'it feels wrong' to you but that instead you had to say 'It is wrong, absolutely'. That is what was arrogant, because you are setting yourself up as the ultimate moral authority on what Liverpool fans ought and ought not to do. Saying it 'feels wrong' is one thing, saying it 'is wrong' is quite another and I don't think any argument you come up with could prove that because it is a subjective statement. As I said originally, you are being ridiculously precious over this when you identify it as a facist symbol. Should we get rid of the flame too because of the religious connotations it could be perceived to carry?

And saying 'It IS wrong' isn't arrogant? Get a grip mate. If you object that strongly, make an alternative. You can't please everyone, so they went with something different. To throw around phrases like 'facist eagle' is a complete over reaction. If anything it actually celebrates the multicultural nature and history of the club as it clearly draws on the kindsm of banners used by other European clubs - hardly like it is just (or at all) based on Lazio.

I think you are taking it a smidgen too seriously mate. We have been accused in the past of being a bit precious and pretentious about our banners (mainly by people who miss the tonguein cheek nature of them) and I think maybe that is what you are doing here. No offence meant, and fair enough if you just don't like the design, but I wouldn't blow it out of proprotion by making neo-Nazi/Lazio references and the like. I think it is quite striking and it does blend aspects of our culture and heritage - pride in our achievements (the 5 stars), honouring our own (the flame) and also recognising the sense in which Liverpool as a club and a city does have a defiant attitude.

Yeah, that is why we moan at him. Most bizarre thing I've seen on here for ages, and that is saying something.

Only if he puts in another season as good as this one next year. Dudek was outstanding in his first season and should have walked the PFA team but lost out to Given. Next season his problems started. Not saying that Pepe will go the same way but I had my fingers burned a bit by Dudek cos I made similar claims about him! Once bitten and all that! But yes, he's been excellent.

On the evidence of today, maybe we need to think about singing a few songs for the current players first.

He would get some respect if he was perceived to put a bit more effort in and moan at his team mates a bit less.

How people can admit that he has a s*** touch and crap work rate and yet still say he is a good player, as snez1 did, baffles me. You can get away with not having one or the other, but to have neither? f***ing hell, that is beyond 'limited' it is is piss poor. I don't regard France as being a 'top European league' and s*** players DO sometimes get to play for strong national sides, so neither of those pieces of evidence do anything to make me change my mind. He can perhaps be 'effective' in one very specific system, but it takes more than that to be a quality player.

Yes.

If Rafa was such a huge fan then why is he so reluctant to play him now? Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe the story about Valencia, Juve et al wanting him got overblown to get us all excited? Can't believe we fell for it like, not after Biscan, but there you go. And please tell me exactly what he is capable of? WhaT are his qualities other than 1) being able to run fast 2) being able to hit the ball hard (sometimes in the right direction too) and 3) er, being able to run fast? I can't be arsed going through the whole 'goal by goal' thing so just deleted it. Comparing his record to that of others does nothing to prove that he is a good player. And that last comment is just ridiculous.

Two that surely deserve a mention: Nicky Tanner Mike Hooper

No replays from the quarters onwards so it will be decided on the night.

You are Yoda and I claim my £5.

But the only reason why the edge lessons is because those who would take things too far get marginalised by those who know where to draw the line (which probably happened in the mid 90s for a number of reasons). You are probably right, these things do go in cycles but only because most people know the point at which to say 'enough is enough' before things get really out of hand. I think we are reaching that point now and there needs to be a period of cooling down again. That doesn't mean the edge is lost totally, just that it is all kept in check - a small price to pay to prevent things continuing to escalate. Nobody wants the edge to go and I agree that it will always be there and there will be times when it all threatens to get out of hand and I am prepared to accept that as part and parcel of this fixture and of being a fan in general. I do get the impression though that there are some (not on here) who actually are secretly glad about the crap that goes on at Old Trafford because it allows them to legitimise the crap that they then get up in response. With things like CCTV these days, it actually WOULD be possible to identify and get rid off the s*** throwers and their ilk in the same way as people can get banned for racism. I know things will never be perfect at this fixture but they can be a damn sight better than they are now (better policing at Old Trafford would be a start). Keep the edge, get rid (as far as is possible) of the nasty extras. Cos if whatw e are saying is 'This has gone for ages, so it always will and there is no point challenging it' then we might as weell pack up and go home now.