kop205

In fairness, anny road has said all along that he thinks the ambulance incident was out of order (and I must admit I fail to see how the fact that were Liverpudlians in the ambulance makes it 'worse'...more ironic and idiotic maybe, but not worse. A bit pedantic maybe but you know what I mean, just as you know what people mean when thay say that those responsible 'aren't fans'). The first part of your post I agree with, though I also agree with those who have said that their instinctive reaction to the treatment meted out at Old Trafford is 'I hope the b******s get some back'. What I don't understand is people actually acting on that feeling. If I had s*** thrown at me then in the heat of the moment I am certain that the thought would corss my mind of how apt and just it would be if s*** got thrown back at them. For many, many reasons though I wouldn't actually go to the trouble of s***ting in a cup, taking it to my seat and hoying it at people. I've already explained lots of times why I don't think that is on and why it sickens me and it has nothing to do with feeling sorry for Mancs.

It was a bit of a reckless tackle, and the boot was very high, but there was absolutely no intent and he has apologised for it since. I hope he doesn't get booed at Anfield in a fortnight as he doesnlt really deserve it, no mater how serious the injury turns out to be.

'knobhound'

I agree, what happens every year at Old Trafford should be published. I alos agree that the ambulance incident has perhaps been exaggerated a little (although only in the sense that it isn't any worse than what happens at Old Trafford - it still sounds serious enough as an earlier poster suggested the vehicle is now off the road). I don't agree that their behaviour legitimises any sort of 'giving it back'. Don't you think that in their eyes, they have exactly the same justification for what they do? Of course they think they do. Back to your first point, which was your best one - publish what happens at Old Trafford, force them into doing something about it 'cos 'giving it back' achieves nothing in the long run and just makes it even more likely that there will be even more bottles bouncing of our heads when we go there next. And surely, as I've said before, that is what we object to and that is what we want stopped. That isn't sitting on a high horse, it is looking at things in a very pragmatic way. My priority isn't to be seen as being more dignified than the Mancs, it is to be able to go to Old Trafford without fearing serious injury and in that sense we shot ourselves in the foot on Saturday.

I agree, but what ought to happen is that a much, much bigger stink is kicked up by us and the club about what happens at Old Trafford rather than simply putting up with it or returning like for like, neither of which are solutions. The fact that nothing exactly like the ambulance incident has happened before is only down to chance and circumstances and for me it doesn't mark a 'new low' or anything like that, it is simply a natural extension and consequence of other things that happen. I really don't think it is anyway separate from or different to (in terms of the mentality required) to the s*** throwing etc. I know you disagree because you see the s*** throwing as simply returning like for like but things never, ever stop at that once you go down that line, they always escalate and become more serious - eye for an eye and the world goes blind etc, and as you have said innocents inevitably get caught up in it too. It isn't about feeling sorry for people getting their medicine back, it is about keeping our dignity and responding in a way which will ultimately either expose those who do it so they can be banned, or (less likely, I admit) shame them into stopping. After all of this, there will just be more s*** landing on us at Old Trafford next year and for me the bottom line is that we should be trying to stop that happening rather than just making it inevitable that it will happen again, which is all that has been achieved by this. Sorry if that is moralising but we all make some judgements about what we think constitutes 'right' or 'wrong' behaviour. If people don't have the bottle to stand up and say 'Actually, I think that is wrong - regardless of what has been done to us in the past', then where does it all stop? Like I said, surely the bottom line is that we want to be able to watch a game in safety and get back to our loved ones at the end of it all. I'd rather we behaved in a way that meant we are less likely to have to put up with this crap from them in the future, even if that means keeping in check the natural urge to retaliate.

I'm not going to slag you off for that mate, you are being honest as you have been all through the various Smith threads and even though I haven't always agreed with you (and had a cheap shot about you being Ste Jordan;s mate , which i meant to apologise for) I admire you for that. It still doesn't quite add up to me though that you are shocked by what happened to the ambulance but not by the s*** throwing. I now that the ambulance thing is fairly unprecedented (Gary Neville's car aside ) whereas the s*** throwing isn't but even so, I don't think the two are particularly distant in terms of the level of disrespect they show. Until the s*** throwers and their ilk are totally marginalised and hopefully found and banned, other serious incidents will continue to happen and I for one won't be shocked because I think that line was crossed a long time ago.

Is there no link at all between the two though? Is rocking an ambulance with an injured man in it such a huge leap, in terms of levels of hatred, from throwing your own excrement over people? I really don't think that it is that huge a leap to be honest and anyone who did the first would have no qualms about doing the second either. Yes, we had it from K Stand for years but as you say that it doesn't make it right when we do it. This has to stop, but as long as people carry on saying 'well, they did that to us first' (whether it be throwing s*** or singing vile Munich or Hillsborough songs) it isn't going to. It will carry on and even escalate. As I've said a few times now, I'm all for getting everything out in the open in terms of what goes on but not in the context of 'well, they did this to us so I'm not bothered what we did back' - more in the sense of both clubs saying enough is enough and hitting down hard on the knobs who do this. I'm sure we'd try harder to nail those repsonsible if we felt that United gave us adeqeuate protection when we went there but they could argue the same, so the only way in which we can move forward is for both clubs to have the courage to admit just how much unpleasant stuff their fans are responsible for and stop blaiming each other. Ultimatley I'd he happy for us to make the first move, not because I think our fans are worse but because someone has to. Highlight our concerns about this fixture, in terms of what both sets fans get up to, and lets get this out into the open.

Verbal agreement was made as part of the transfer that he wouldn't play.

No, I think we understood you perfectly well and it is incredibly insulting. I am more than aware myself of people who comfortably earn enough to attend the games and hold down what would be considered very middle class jobs (jobs for which they need a university education) and yet pride themselves on being 'hard cases' who still get involved in and actively seek out confrontation. It was just a ridiculous comment to make and I wouldn't even try to defend it to be honest. As for the incident itself, it is disgusting. But, as with the Alan Smith songs, if we are going to be criticised for it then let it be as part of opening up a wider deabte about what has been going on at these games. How aware are the national media of what happens every time we go to Old Trafford in terms of being attacked leaving the away end and s*** and piss being thrown (according to people who have been to a number of games there)? Unless this is really opened up, the situation will just get worse and I honestly think there will be a serious injury at one of these games soon. Their knobheads will use what went on at Anfield to justify worse attacks on us, just as our knobheads used the 'Neville factor' and various other things to justify their behaviour, and so it will continue.

I call a ceasefire on Case. I must admit, my first reaction to seeing his post was 'You cheeky f*****' but fair is fair, he's admitted many times he got it wrong last year and has at least provided good reasons why people shouldn't criticise now. Even so, balls of steel to start a thread on this!

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Please do, because you'll find that the reason that thread was so long because half the people on it DID give a s*** about Alan Smith, most of the rest weren't arsed and a few thought it was funny - one tof them being Elisha Scott, who has already said he's happy to take back what he gives out. So what the f*** exactly is your point? That we aren't perfect? Although it doesnlt suit youtr sad, bitter agenda to admit this, the vast majority of us know that and make no apologies for those amongst us who we feel take it too far. You? 'tell me when I've been racist' is your best response. Well to coin one of your later replies, 'Just because I haven;t heard it doesn't mean it doesn't happen'. Not that I have any reason to think that you are racist of course - just that you have got a f***ing cheek to come on here and try to have a go about the Smith song when there is a big, bitter, racist (and wooden) house over on your side of Stanley Park that needs putting in order first.

As I said in the big thread the other day, I donlt mind us being criticised for what we sang at Smith provided it is part of opening up a proper debate about some of the s*** that gets sung at matches. Interesting letter in the Observer the other week by someone who follows Everton away from home but is pissed off with doing so because of the sickening racism that gets aired - including a song praising the killers of Anthony Walker. Add that to 'Hou had a heart attack?', 'Hey Emile Heskey I wanna know if you'll be my slave' and the many Hillsborough and Heysel slurs that you lot have produced over the years. Then, if you still want to come on and have a go about something so comparitively insignificant as what was chanted at Smith, then feel free. You absolute f***wit.

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Big thing about that in the Observer review section on Sunday, probably the same article. Just another reason to dislike the c***.

That would be my guess. If he isn't fit enough to play tonight then surely they wouldn't have taken him as, from the sounds of things, it isnlt as though the injury has just come to light. I know that there is the morale aspect etc but it would seem daft to take him if he wasnlt going to be involved.

That bottom one looks like the kind of s**** picture that people put on their fridges because their kid did it. Only thing missing is a big smiley sun in the top right hand corner.

Same thing anyway really I suppose.

I'd always assumed he is a United fan as wel, and I think he may have got a s***load of abusive leters telling him so because in his colum a couple of years back he set the record straight and revealed why he really writes so much s**** about us... ...he is an Evertonian. Or, what he actually said, was something along the lines of Everton being 'his' Premiership side but he doesn't really follown anyone that passionately. His words.

As I've said a few times in this thread, I wasn't happy with what was sung BUT it is scanadalous to mention the taunting without a) mentioning the fact that the majority applauded him off and b) mentioning the s**** that the away end spouted all game (think it was mentioned in another article) I'd accept us being criticised for the taunting if it was done as part of opening up a full and frank debate about how posionous the atmosphere at these games has become again. I'm not saying that 'they started it' or 'we only did it 'cos of what they were singing' cos they are s**** (and possibly untrue) arguments. I do think though that maybe the time has come for the clubs to try to address some of what happens at these games, whether that be sick chanting or running the gauntlet coming out of the away end at Old Trafford. There is a conection between the two in the sense that some meatheads will always use what other fans chant as a reason to attack them and use what their own fans chant as a way of psyching themselves up

In fairness mate, there has been a bit of lecturing going on - from both sides of the debate at times. Given some of the other s**** that has gone on at these games over the years, I can fully undesrtand why there are people (like anny road) who aren't arsed either way about what happened to Smith. I can even understand (in the sense that I'm not surprised) that there are a few who took pleasure in it (even if I can't agree with them myself). At the end of the day, it isn't a massive deal and I take much greater exception to the Munich/Hillsborough brigade. Those songs strike at the very heart of things the two clubs hold dear and probably cross a line for 95% of fans these days. The Smith song was a slightly poor taste joke that I'd rather we'd not sung but we did. Though I will admit I laughed when I heard it said that Riise has a more dangerous shot than Dick Cheyney...

There is a difference between being shocked that people sang the song (I wasn't) and feeling that it was a bit unpleasant (I did). I've no wish to lecture people about it or get on a high horse, people are entitled to react in whatever way they choose. I am more than aware that Alan Smith is a snidey, dirty little t*** who it IS hard to sympathy for. What I will say though is that a lot of 'high horse' stuff has also been coming from people having a go at those who dare to say that they felt it was uncalled for, almost as if they are questioning their understanding of what it is to be a Liverpool fan. If someone feels it was uncalled for, fine. It doesn't make them any less of a Liverpool fan, I suppose we all draw a line somewhere in how far we would take our hatred of other clubs and it just so happens that for me and a few others, taunting an opposition player who has suffered a terrible injury (no matter how unpleasant their character and their club) crosses that line. And yes, I am well aware that it is a line that it is a line that has been crossed, and crossed further, many times before - by fans of both clubs. If you feel it doesn't cross a line, or if you are indifferent about it all, then fine. I know some people will feel strongly that they have good reason for not being sympathetic and that is fine by me. The only parts of the the thread that I disagree with are those that have argued that NOBODY is entitled to have sympathy.

1 I know he doesn't, I'm just not sure that playing for Man Utd automatically makes a bad injury something to laugh about. 2 We ALL know that because you never cease reminding everyone about it. 3 Why should you care what Smith did to Leeds? What is to say that Jordan wouldn't leave City if his and their circumstances came to mirror Smith's and Leeds? Smith leaving Leeds does f*** all to justify the abuse he took yesterday. 4 I know, but as you have a mate who is a pro player I would have thought it might have made you a little more sensitive in sutuations when someone suffers a potentially careet threatening injury. And as for the final comment, I actually said in my intial post 'fair enough for not pretending'. I don't want you to pretend, and I'm not going to be arrogant or sanctimonious enough to say that I don't understand why some people feel it is ok to taunt to him. What I disagreed with was you saying that you couldn't understand why some people found it distasteful. Even if you personally don't, it hardly takes a huge leap of imagination to see why some people did. Me? I can see both points of view really and wouldn't passionately defend or attack either.

How would you feel if the injury had happened to Ste Jordan in a Manchester derby and he'd been taunted about it? I assume you would be raging, so surely it isn't that hard to understand why others found it a bit distasteful in this instance. That isn't to say that you should feel that way to - you feel how you feel and fair enough for not pretending. At the same time though, donlt be too surprised that there are others who feel that the las deserevs a bit more respect than that.

Will certainly be on some channel, probably Fox sports. You'll get one of the Champions league games per week on free to air TV, SBS I think. The others will be on Fox.