Damian_de

100% agree. IMO it's nothing but guesswork to support whinging to suggest that he's lost the players. Personally, I'm 'happy' to hear Torres talk about the need for investment. It doesn't make me feel any better about our long term situation, but I do think it's important in the sense that the fans will likely pick up on the message if the players start to criticise the owners. It could be that Rafa is not the man to lead us to 19 - the competition is very strong, and we haven't been competing on an even footing with the top sides for a decade or more - but it is so not the question to be asking right now, and the players are hopefully starting to say as much. Or maybe even every time he thinks he knows what it is, it changes? We were serious about Barry and Tevez last summer, weren't we?

what do you expect him to do?

That is not the most inspiring 24 months worth of signings

Do tell

I don't. But I do think it has prevented us from keeping it together this season. You can tell from what Reina said at the time the players knew we had completely missed our chance to kick on. It might 'send out the wrong message' but if thats where the players' heads were at we'd almost certainly end up where we are now regardless of how on message Reina could have been.

Lots of sense. On the last point though - Reina basically came out and said it just as the season was about to kick off.

We made 4th under GH when it wasn't a CL spot (and there were less teams going for it...). I'm just saying, the reason you expect CL minimum is because of the work Rafa has done before this season - making the CL every year, something we haven't achieved previously. If, as seems likely, we miss it for the first time, surely he has earned the chance to get us back on track? More to the point, Wigan was abysmal, but I don't understand why it makes a difference to you as to whether of not Rafa has earned the chance to manage us next season. Especially given the fact that Torres has pretty much just admitted that the players know that the quality does not exist in the squad to challenge.

Stated clear as day - the effect of no investment last summer on how the players are thinking.

What's to get hung up about 4th? Under GH we rarely made the CL positions (which is the reason you want 4th), and yet there wasn't this wailing and gnashing of teeth. Is it because you've had your expectations raised since then, and if so, who raised them?

Sorry, I was agreeing with you that the problem is at the top first and foremost.

from who's viewpoint?

You got me Who knows what the truth is there?

So, it's not Lucas then?

You should try to get out of your head the idea that Rafa's attempt to evolve tactically was to play Lucas instead of Alonso. We were in for Barry again last summer, but we didn't get him. By the time we sold Alonso, he didn't get the money. Playing Lucas all the time is making do with what you've got - no doubt, Rafa rates Lucas, certainly more than he rates Aquilani... - but you're kidding yourself if you think that position wouldn't be filled by Barry or A.N. Other if possible. I'm not saying selling Alonso was the best thing Rafa has ever done, I'm certain we'd be top 4 this season if we have Xabi instead of Aquilani in the squad. But I think there was something to be said for losing Alonso to take the team to the next step. On the subject of FBs... goals from open play were not what killed us at the start of the season.

That's what he said isn't it? Not good enough this season, but that Leo was overstating exactly how bad Rafa has been.

A lot, sure. But we've certainly seen Stevie, Riera and Dirk zipping the thing about with menace, and Danny Agger's passing was naturally more effective when the forward players were giving him better targets.

I'm not under the impression we exactly dwell on the ball now, although we certainly aren't using it well. edit: in fact, up until this season I think our use of the ball is one of the most pleasing things about the side. this year, with confidence on the seemingly ever downwards spiral half the team seem to have forgotten how to move, or control the thing.

Stoke away is not the start of the season. Lucas and Mascherano played CM together plenty of times last season. What are the significant tactical differences you speak of?

You ever watch Sacchi's team, mate? They could up tempo with the best of them. We don't play the same as them anyway, he BASED some of his ideas on them - the obvious part being whats best for the team trumping whats best for the individual.

Tactics didn't hold us back last season though did they - can you point out any significant differences in the tactics we employed at the start of this season compared to at the end of last? Re: John an Rhein's post... we are comfortably top half, so I think he's spot on there in saying this is bad 'by Rafa's standards' but not flat out useless. The thing about evolving the style, clearly ever since the Alonso-Barry business he's been looking to evolve something to take another step, but we have been playing pretty decent standard of football for seasons now, it's not like trying to evolve from the GH blanket defence - ball over the top to Owen stuff.

And not true. But never mind. translation: hire & fire is good. the league is our birthright. *throws toys from pram*

Does it not also depend on their willingness to move? They have contracts, they probably have the honour to stick it out for at least another season, too. I think it more likely that they are frustrated by being unable to halt the decline, because of not being fit... But failure to reach the CL will surely have very significant consequences for us, and we can't say what lengths the owners will go to to service the debt. Thing is, this shouldn't be surprising anyone. What's their modus-operandi (or Hicks, at least) been elsewhere? Exactly the nightmare scenario, asset stripped and profit made. Don't think this season's car crash in slow motion performances have done much to make our situation worse, tbh, because we have been f***ed ever since those 2 took over.

Not the best example in many peoples' eyes, but tbf Traore came through and played a lot. The thing is, we're not really getting the 'sure things' like Arsenal in particular, because we aren't paying the high fees, wages, atractive sign ons and so on - we're shopping in the bracket below. Pacheco and Bruna are perhaps the only 2 who we might have signed who are in the really top class youngsters bracket. And then there's the one who got away - Essien.

Genius How about if we changed the premier league rules so that only teams whose names begin and end with an L can enter?

Arsenal have disintegrated without those 2 in seasons past, whereas we did OK without SG and Tog for fairly long periods last season. Not as simple as you make it out to be, IMHO> Agreed. I still think it's a big jump with no evidence to say Gerrard has lost faith. It's hardly any time since he said he wants to stay here for his whole career, he's as happy as he's ever been, and so on. So given that, my feeling is he isn't fit, and we all know how lousy he can play when he's not there physically.