betterman

Very true. On the other hand he would probably have decapitated Thierry Henry. Or, failing that, Paul McShane. Either way it would have been better than Given!

Jesus no, don't....

Been a long time since our back four (whoever is picked) has looked so shaky. Only Pepe inspires confidence. Every time Fiorentina broke you got the feeling they might open us up. I'm not going to have a go at Darby in the circumstances, but really where's the leadership? Our centre backs need to get their act together big time IMHO. Though the whole team is malfunctioning at the moment I suppose, if that's the word.

Ya, it's highly unlikely alright.

Let's not ramp up the expectation too much, we'll have him as the new Lionel Messi by page 3 of this thread He did look good though and (I will probably get stick for armchair psychology here) but it was so refreshing to see someone so up for it and obviously uninhibited just get on the field and have a f***ing go!! I would desperately like to see that from so many others in our squad right now. Would like to see him on the bench more, could be important for us and for his development not to completely disappear now when the rest of them are available again.

Is the job of his and his like not to make a ridiculous prediction about a player based on the prevailing ill considered (or not considered at all) opinion of the ignorant masses? His opinion was formed before the game you can be sure and he will have seen whatever he wants to so that he can justify it. After 75 minutes of his first start following a serious injury I just can't wait to see him fit and - please god - in the team with Gerrard and Torres. Having them all on the field for al of five minutes gave me a small bit of hope for the future! Thought Stevie looked a bit more like himself tonight too. Good call to play him I'd say, though we won't know 'til Sunday.

No, we're not, you're right. Forget about Everton. My point is our squad is not good enough. Our injury problems are no worse than united's or arsenal's or a lot of other clubs. The difference is a team with title aspirations should not be basing their hopes on their best players being fully fit all year. They should have a strong squad, we don't. After five years in the Champions League we're still woefully lacking strength in depth.

Anyone who agreed our squad was stronger than united's was wrong, as was proven when they won the league. We had a better first eleven alright. Our squad is better than Everton's yes, but not good enough for us to sustain a title challenge through injury problems.

That about sums up the situation with injuries.

Ya, I don't for a second expect them to win the thing. They could win the league again though, hopefully their defensive woes continue and Rooney and Giggs have a terribly unfortunate training ground collision.

There's an element of truth to that, but still I maintain it was the strength of their squad in recent years, particularly last year, that has cost us a title. Look at the players not involved in a 3-1 away win against a team trying (however f***ing ineptly) to qualify from their group: Edwin van der Sar, Gary Neville, John O'Shea, Nemanja Vidic, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Wes Brown, Wayne Rooney, Dimitar Berbatov, Federico Macheda, Rafael da Silva, Fabio da Silva, Jonny Evans, Wes Brown, Ryan Giggs, Ben Foster.... Some are s*** yes, but there's a case to be made for 'never mind the quality, feel the width' because no-one else could have sustained as many injuries and then still f***ing rested key players. It's all about cash to buy (which they seem to have run out of) and promoting your own through the ranks (which they seem to be still well ahead of the game at).

I hope not.

They did well, were really lucky to be level when Valencia and Obertan came on and they made a big difference when the game opened up. Wolfsburg should have been out of sight by then though. They needed to push on and were caught twice. Owen took the third really well, classic break away goal from almost their own goal line. But, despite your pile of s**** remark, you'd have to say with all the players they are missing the fact that they could still rest more and put out that (almost entirely) reserve team and get a result like that is a sign of serious strength in depth. It's a bit sickening to be honest.

Nope, he's not. No one here said he was - just like no one here said he was the best in the world or one of the best in the world. Just said that he's having a great season so far at Man City and, as has been pointed out, the shot stopping bit is the one area you'd want your keeper to excel if you were forced to choose!

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I'm not waffling or if I am it's not an attempt to. He's starting. I'm delighted he's starting and hope he gets on great, but he could also end up being hauled off after 20 minutes. My essential point (just for you) is that I'm sure Rafa wants him to be fit and contributing more than any of us do so I'm not so quick to say he was obviously fit for action and just not (for some other reason) being given a game.

Much as I appreciate your sarcasm, that's not what I'm saying, it's what you've inferred. If you actually read what I said it was that I don't have a clue what shape he was/is in and I reckon neither does anyone else on here. I also said earlier he should have been playing if fit, but I'm just not as sure as you seem to be that he is. It's entirely plausible they brought him on and then felt he wasn't up to it yet - it happens. Or it's based on very close scrutiny of his fitness regime with his long term fitness at heart. But those arguments are as much guesswork as yours really.

I've already said if he's fit he should be playing. But you just don't know what the story is with him, do you? If this thread has proven one thing it's that no-one here knows why he hasn't been playing/if he is fit/unfit/being protected/in fact made of glass. Let's just hope he gets his game tomorrow and plays well (or at least survives).

I posted on here back in the day saying it was time for GH to go. And I was in the minority then too. The only responses that genuinely annoyed me though were the ones in the vein of 'no proper supporter would say that' etc But most posters would say exactly why they felt I was wrong and that's fair enough. I don't feel the same about Rafa now, but for those who do on here I feel that some would be better served sticking to the reasons why they feel that way and debating the merits of their arguments. Talk about signings, the way we play etc etc but it does tend to get very childish very quickly sometimes and there is definitely a serious lack of respect shown for Rafa and what he has achieved. I understand there's a level of frustration with how things are going, but that's hardly the sole preserve of those few who want the manager out. Yet the rest come on here, probably already annoyed, to see a frankly childish thread title/comment. And it's not about winning or losing an argument, everyone wants the club to do well. If you think a change of manager is required for that to happen then fine, but don't expect everyone else to just accept what you have to say and don't react in put-upon manner when people have the temerity to argue their own point of view. (This post is not directed at you personally)

But Mascherano is not that type of player and won't become one either. His passing is largely good IMHO, I'm not expecting him to open up defences. He does his job and generally does it well. Then we have Lucas alongside him, offering practically nothing. When we had Alonso I don't remember Mascherano's passing being an issue. But until Aquilani is fit Lucas is (sadly) the best we have to offer and he gives it his all to be fair, but he's limited and never going the player we'd all love him to be/hope Aquilani will prove to be.

No, it's not that. I'm under no illusions about Irish players. And I couldn't give two f***s about Man City. I think you're right in the sense that all these people (or s**** pundits/journalists) hailing Given the best 'keeper in the league etc are wrong, but that still doesn't make him s***. And to say he's made no difference to his team this year is just plain wrong, whatever your views on him. He's just been playing very well this season and made a lot of important saves, that's all I'm saying really. And on an unrelated note we should sign Kevin Kilbane, Glenn Whelan, Leon Best and Liam Lawrence, solving all our problems for a few quid

I agree with most of what you said, but that bit doesn't stand up for me. Same was said about Blackburn. Leaving aside that lumps weren't kicked out of players in either match, unfortunately football is a contact sport and he's as likely to get kicked tomorrow night as any other. Who are the right, gentle obliging team to start against? When you're fit you're fit, end of. It's time to be getting on the pitch and getting match sharp. (I'm not saying he is/has been fully fit, because no-one on here knows, just that he can't be wrapped in cotton wool for fear that he might get kicked by some supposedly 'dirty' team)

He could be right back for them soon At least we all agree on who the best is, the man's a legend. I'd say he'd have made a great centre back if he wasn't a great keeper too.

Can't agree. Of all the keepers in the Premier League only Pepe has made a bigger difference for their team than Given so far this season. He's a brilliant shot stopper, but 'nothing more' is fairly harsh. You're right he's far from the best in those areas, but also far from the worst. Cech is the most overrated keeper around right now, just because we all remember how good he once was. Weakest link in that team. Friedel is a class act alright. Is he any better than Given though? No. Neither is Van Der Sar (did you mention distribution and command of the area??) And Almunia? Are you joking?