Case for Only One of Mascherano & Lucas at Anfield

[Leo No.8]

We've scored 40 goals at home this season which is loads considering we've been so crap.

 

Of those 40 goals nearly half of them (17) have come in just 4 games against Hull, Burnley, Portsmouth and Sunderland. The common denominator? Mascherano sat out Burnley and Hull, no Lucas against Portsmouth and Sunderland. With both playing we've laboured to draws against Birmingham and City, lost to Villa etc.

 

We play such good football with something like a full side and only one of those two I'm wondering if we should ever play them both.

 

Surely our dreadful away form is directly linked to the fact that we almost always play both of them away from home? Almost every bright spot this season has seen us playing with one or the other, every dark day with them both so isn't is startlingly obvious it doesn't work? Do we have to be so cautious away from home anyway?

 

Naturally I'd rather Lucas be the one to drop out, but if Rafa really wanted to play him I'd rather Lucas sit and leave one of our best players in Mascherano out than play both, its that important to the shape of the team and I don't think both should ever be on the same pitch at any one time unless maybe we're protecting a lead.

 

I'd go as far as to say that Rafa persisting with Lucas and Mascherano all season has been the biggest single contributing factor to this poor season and one gigantic, atrocious mistake. Watching the freedom we've played with against Portsmouth and Sunderland makes it all the more frustrating it has taken so long to correct.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Leo No.8

[Arazel]

The problem isnt that he insists on playing two holding players - it worked last season with Alonso and Mascherano. The difference is that we obviously no longer have Alonso and Lucas isnt the same type of player. Rafa has failed to adjust his tactics to suit new players.

[Jarg Armani]

The freedom we played with in all those games was down to the prescence of Torres.

 

It's the old tactical shackles discussion isn't it. There aren't any shackles, there's just a team without a fit Torres.

[smithdown]

The freedom we played with in all those games was down to the prescence of Torres.

 

It's the old tactical shackles discussion isn't it. There aren't any shackles, there's just a team without a fit Torres.

 

 

and no alternative striker with any experience for when he is out

 

simple as that

[Leo No.8]

The freedom we played with in all those games was down to the prescence of Torres.

 

It's the old tactical shackles discussion isn't it. There aren't any shackles, there's just a team without a fit Torres.

 

Couldn't disagree more to be honest. I thought all the free flowing play against Portsmouth and Sunderland involved a mixture of Gerrard, Maxi, Aquilani (against Portsmouth), Kuyt and Johnson. The first ridiculous goal yesterday aside he wasn't being forced to create his own chances but was being teed up by others. Torres was primarily allowed to do what he does best which is get onto the end of the chances that we for a change we were creating for him.

 

He could have had four in both games and missed a few good chances which were set up for him with good free flowing football like the two in the first half yesterday which he fired past and against the post. Rather than it being down to him Torres is the biggest beneficiary of not playing Lucas and Mascherano. He cuts a frustrated figure up there on his own, but really looked like he was enjoying his football when we got players up in support of him.

 

I'd very much contest you are seeing the best of Torres when we leave one of the holding midfielders out, because of the difference in shape to the side.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Leo No.8

[Epic Swindle]

We've been turgid with Torres in the side too. It's about the approach and service from midfield. Obviously Torres gives Rafa the confidence to be more aggressive but we need to have that same mentality whoever plays.

[Jarg Armani]

Couldn't disagree more to be honest. I thought all the free flowing play against Portsmouth and Sunderland involved a mixture of Gerrard, Maxi, Aquilani (against Portsmouth), Kuyt and Johnson. The first ridiculous goal yesterday aside he wasn't being forced to create his own chances but was being teed up by others. Torres was primarily allowed to do what he does best which is get onto the end of the chances that we for a change we were creating for him.

 

He could have had four in both games and missed a few good chances which were created for him. Torres is the biggest beneficiary of not playing Lucas and Mascherano. He cuts a frustrated figure up there on his own, but really looked like he was enjoying his football when we got players up in support of him.

 

You're right to say all of those things but it doesn't mean you disagree with me.

 

It's like what people have been saying (correctly) about Babel, he's dragging defenders all over the place with strength and power, and even if he makes the wrong choice it makes space for clever little lads like maxi and yossi, and slow lads like Dirk to have their maximum impact. The vital difference between the two though, is, obviously, that Torres is absolutely stunningly brilliant, and almost never makes the wrong choice.

[David Hodgson]

The problem isnt that he insists on playing two holding players - it worked last season with Alonso and Mascherano. The difference is that we obviously no longer have Alonso and Lucas isnt the same type of player. Rafa has failed to adjust his tactics to suit new players.

 

Two deep holding midfielders is a very very defensive set up, unless one of them can move the ball around like Alonso, who is virtually a one off in the modern game. Having two in the centre who are just screeners and don't contribute to offensive play is ridiculously negative. I understand it if you really need to close out a game, or in a tough away fixture where you're underdogs, but 90% of the time it's way over the top.

 

Having two ball winners is fine, as we had yesterday, but at least one of them has to be able to pass/and or get forward. Is there any other top coach in world football who plays two pure 'destroyers' in central midfield ?

[D.Boon]

I think only one of Masch and Lucas should be extended to most away games too.

[Leo No.8]

You're right to say all of those things but it doesn't mean you disagree with me.

 

It's like what people have been saying (correctly) about Babel, he's dragging defenders all over the place with strength and power, and even if he makes the wrong choice it makes space for clever little lads like maxi and yossi, and slow lads like Dirk to have their maximum impact. The vital difference between the two though, is, obviously, that Torres is absolutely stunningly brilliant, and almost never makes the wrong choice.

 

I think where we differ in opinion is you are saying Torres' brilliance is the difference, wheras I think we're only allowed to see Torres' brilliance properly when the shape of the team is right and we can create chances for him. His service has been abject when we've had say a midfield of Lucas, Mascherano, Kuyt & Maxi.

 

Can you imagine how many he'd score for Barcelona? As soon as he gets some decent service here he's scoring two a game.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Leo No.8

[smithdown]

We've been turgid with Torres in the side too. It's about the approach and service from midfield. Obviously Torres gives Rafa the confidence to be more aggressive but we need to have that same mentality whoever plays.

 

Torres gives the players confidence to be more agressive.

[David Hodgson]

The freedom we played with in all those games was down to the prescence of Torres.

 

It's the old tactical shackles discussion isn't it. There aren't any shackles, there's just a team without a fit Torres.

 

It's both to a degree. The coincidence of dropping Lucas with having Torres back and we play our best two games of the season (Portsmouth & Sunderland). With Lucas/Masch and Torres, against Lille at home, we didn't look half as effective.

 

Undoubtedly Lucas/Masch is the wrong default combo. There are times to use it, but not as the norm.

[Leo No.8]

Torres gives the players confidence to be more agressive.

 

We've often been crap with Torres in the side this season.

 

With two holding midfielders sitting on top of the centre halves and no pace out wide, the opposition put a man on Gerrard full time and Torres is a lone figure up front getting kicked to f*ck without another Liverpool player within 20 yards of him. Its not hard to see why he's been so frustrated.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Leo No.8

[Conrad]

You can play great attacking football with two midfielders who mainly sit.

 

It is much easier to do so if one of them has the ability to move the ball forward quickly and accurately (a la Alonso). It helps if the other one is quick and covers a lot of ground (Mascherano)

 

The problem this season has not been 2 holding mids per se. Lucas has really slowed our attacking play down despite having a reasonable season by HIS standards

 

It has been a lack of quality, both first XI and in particular squad depth.

 

Lack of quality in key positions

 

Central mid - Lucas

 

Up front - NGog

 

Left back - Insua

 

Ad a lack of pace in wide positions, particularly when Johnson has been injured and babel not doing enough to deserve to start (until recently)

 

Also, a half fit Torres (Sept-Dec) or an injured Torres = a big problem.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Heighway 61 Revisited

[Zoob]

I think it's a combination of factors. Clearly, a fit Torres greatly helps our attacking play, but not playing 2 holding midfielders is also going to help. I think we played too many games with Mascherano + Lucas because Rafa was too scared to try something else and was overly cautious (for example, Portsmouth away), but there were also times (for example Birmingham home) where our team was depleted (carragher suspended, Skrtel horribly off form), Gerrard + Torres not fit, Aquilani not match fit, and we'd been letting in silly goals, so we didn't really have too many options.

[Epic Swindle]

Torres gives the players confidence to be more agressive.

 

I agree, but too often he's left isolated because we're set up to stifle the opposition, and that goes for even the weakest sides. It's just nice to see us going out and not getting bogged down in tactics and keeping it simple, and I'd like that to be our mentality for the vast majority of games because when we do no one can live with us. It's just frustrating that it's come too late again.

[johngibo YPC]

I agree that we need to be using both Masch and Lucas less at home

But then our home form isn't really the problem. Its actually very good

[Leo No.8]

I agree that we need to be using both Masch and Lucas less at home

But then our home form isn't really the problem. Its actually very good

 

And whenever we leave one out at home we're brilliant. But we play them just about every time away from home and are utter sh*t repeatedly. Coincidence? I agree with D.Boon that the leaving one or the other out (Lucas mostly) should be extended to away from home as well.

 

We want to play some good football away as well don't we? What we've been doing all season clearly hasn't worked.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Leo No.8

[Jarg Armani]

I think where we differ in opinion is you are saying Torres' brilliance is the difference, wheras I think we're only allowed to see Torres' brilliance properly when the shape of the team is right and we can create chances for him. His service has been abject when we've had say a midfield of Lucas, Mascherano, Kuyt & Maxi.

 

Can you imagine how many he'd score for Barcelona? As soon as he gets some decent service here he's scoring two a game.

 

He'd score millions for Barca but he'd probably find himself in a support role like he plays for Spain, so if you see him, tell him not to bother signing for them.

 

The midfield you name there should never see the light of day unless we're protecting a 2-1 lead in an away leg in The Nou Camp.

 

Even then, if we had Gerrard fit and playing as well as he did last season behind A Rampant Torres they'd still make the space for the wide midfielders and the full backs to get forward in support. But that's more on Gerrard than anything else.

[D.Boon]

Coincidence? I agree with D.Boon that the leaving one or the other out (Lucas mostly) should be extended to away from home as well.

 

Unless Masch is injured or knackered it should always be Lucas on the bench.

[Conrad]

I don't see why we should ever be leaving out Mascherano - he's one of our 4 world class players. He plays every time. And not at f****** right back

[Epic Swindle]

On paper Gerrard and Masch are the perfect pairing - one sitting and one on the front foot. I don't understand the reluctance to play them together more. We didn't look any less solid without the extra DM, mainly because we had an attacking mentality. That won't work in every game but it's also about developing a partnership.

[surf]

We've scored 40 goals at home this season which is loads considering we've been so crap.

 

Of those 40 goals nearly half of them (17) have come in just 4 games against Hull, Burnley, Portsmouth and Sunderland. The common denominator? Mascherano sat out Burnley and Hull, no Lucas against Portsmouth and Sunderland. With both playing we've laboured to draws against Birmingham and City, lost to Villa etc.

 

We play such good football with something like a full side and only one of those two I'm wondering if we should ever play them both.

 

Surely our dreadful away form is directly linked to the fact that we almost always play both of them away from home? Almost every bright spot this season has seen us playing with one or the other, every dark day with them both so isn't is startlingly obvious it doesn't work? Do we have to be so cautious away from home anyway?

 

Naturally I'd rather Lucas be the one to drop out, but if Rafa really wanted to play him I'd rather Lucas sit and leave one of our best players in Mascherano out than play both, its that important to the shape of the team and I don't think both should ever be on the same pitch at any one time unless maybe we're protecting a lead.

 

I'd go as far as to say that Rafa persisting with Lucas and Mascherano all season has been the biggest single contributing factor to this poor season and one gigantic, atrocious mistake. Watching the freedom we've played with against Portsmouth and Sunderland makes it all the more frustrating it has taken so long to correct.

 

Another common denominator is that Hull, Portsmouth, Burnley and Sunderland are all s***.

But i do agree with the sentiment, in some games only one of Lucas and Masch should play. Given that there's 50-60 matches in a season i'd keep both of them at Anfield though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Leo No.8]

I agree, Mascherano would be one of my first names on the teamsheet. But he needs a rest, particularly when Argentina are playing in far away places so Lucas would get games filling in for him in the holding role in those situations, or in European aways may every now and then play alongside him.

 

I think under those circumstances Lucas would start 15 or so times a season and come on as sub another 15 which I think is about the right involvement for a player of his level of ability at a club like ours with league title ambitions. His role should be backup to Mascherano rather than partner.

 

Another common denominator is that Hull, Portsmouth, Burnley and Sunderland are all s***.

But i do agree with the sentiment, in some games only one of Lucas and Masch should play. Given that there's 50-60 matches in a season i'd keep both of them at Anfield though.

 

We've created absolutely nothing against equally sh*t sides (Portsmouth, Wigan, Wolves away etc) with both of them in though. Torres and Gerrard both played against Wigan and Portsmouth as well so no excuses about top players missing.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Leo No.8

[fred milne]

On paper Gerrard and Masch are the perfect pairing - one sitting and one on the front foot. I don't understand the reluctance to play them together more.

Because when we played them together during the 1st half of 2007-8 season the football was often disjointed - Masch lacked the passing range/quick footballing brain whilst Gerrard was too impatient to play the killer pass.