The problems are not in defence

[magneto]

Arbeloa, Carragher, Finnan, Aurelio etc did their bit tonight. The other defensive combinations this season have also done their bit.

 

The problem has and always will be with Rafa in ATTACK. Take a look at our "rivals". Comparatively, our defenses are on par with the likes of Arsenal, Utd, Chelsea...even Everton and City.

 

We just lack pace and the skill to break teams down. Till Torres scored tonight, it was Birmingham MKII.

[AE]

This has been our problem for the last few years.

Rafa has not fixed it.

He is a very good manager, but I am coming to the conclusion he is not suited to the PL.

We are now out of the race and playing for two cups and CL qualification which we all know is not good enough.

I still really hope Rafa makes it, but as of now I would not be as gutted to see him go as I would two or three months ago.

It is NOT good enough for Liverpool, we are a ****ing joke in the league.

[alias75]

The problem is great attacking players cost a lot of money and up to this point he hasnt had that type of money to spend on attacking players because hes had to strengthen the squad as a whole. As a result most of our attacking signings have been 4-5 million midfielders or 8-10 million strikers, thats simply doesnt get you the necessary quality unless you get a bit lucky.

 

Its glaringly obvious that all the problems in the team are our attacking players we have 2 very good ones and the rest are either very inconsistent or just not up to it.

[crisps]

The problem is great attacking players cost a lot of money and up to this point he hasnt had that type of money to spend on attacking players because hes had to strengthen the squad as a whole. As a result most of our attacking signings have been 4-5 million midfielders or 8-10 million strikers, thats simply doesnt get you the necessary quality unless you get a bit lucky.

 

Its glaringly obvious that all the problems in the team are our attacking players we have 2 very good ones and the rest are either very inconsistent or just not up to it.

 

The wingers pairing tonight is probably up there with one of the worst the premiership has seen.

 

Like I said in another post, alot of money is needed to get us to the top, but do the owners trust benitez to get us there? I doubt anyone else could come in and make what we've got now a title challenging team. Only 1 of our new 4 attacking summer recruits started tonight. 2 weren't even on the bench. says it all really. Makes you wonder if signing Babel and Lucas was a good thing, 20m for 2 prospects who've hardly featured, is it the correct point for buying players like this or should we be gambling on more proven quality.

 

Meh, it's hard to accept mediocrity at a club like ours

Edited January 2, 2008 by crisps

[Guest RedLegend]

Not enough pace, width, imagination or creativity in attack.

 

Too predictable. Too easy to defend against.

Edited January 2, 2008 by RedLegend

[alias75]

The wingers pairing tonight is probably up there with one of the worst the premiership has seen.

 

Like I said in another post, alot of money is needed to get us to the top, but do the owners trust benitez to get us there? I doubt anyone else could come in and make what we've got now a title challenging team. Only 1 of our new 4 attacking summer recruits started tonight. 2 weren't even on the bench. says it all really. Makes you wonder if signing Babel and Lucas was a good thing, 20m for 2 prospects who've hardly featured, is it the correct point for buying players like this or should we be gambling on more proven quality.

 

Meh, it's hard to accept mediocrity at a club like ours

 

this is where i disagree with you, the frustrating thing for me is i dont think were far off. But your correct the missing pieces are going to be expensive we need 2 world class attacking players that will have a similar impact as Torres and Gerrard. I said on another thread put Ronaldo in our current team and i think we'd be in front of Man Utd, so we can't be that far off. Of course signing someone that will have the impact of someone like Ronaldo is easier said than done, but all the focus should be finding those top attacking players with pace and skill.

[crisps]

this is where i disagree with you, the frustrating thing for me is i dont think were far off. But your correct the missing pieces are going to be expensive we need 2 world class attacking players that will have a similar impact as Torres and Gerrard. I said on another thread put Ronaldo in our current team and i think we'd be in front of Man Utd, so we can't be that far off. Of course signing someone that will have the impact of someone like Ronaldo is easier said than done, but all the focus should be finding those top attacking players with pace and skill.

 

We're not far off but two afford these couple of players to get there we're going to have to buy some proven quality what aint gonna be cheap and then you don't know how theyre gonna adapt but its a risk we definitely have to take. The other option is to take a gamble like say on a couple of very talented south american based players and hope we get a kaka!

 

This is now where we spend 40m on a centre mid and a centre back

Edited January 2, 2008 by crisps

[AJ The Red]

I disagree our defence is part of the team and doesnt

contribute towards our attack at all.Our overlappiing runs

are slow and our cbs never score apart from a certain 34 yr old.

 

How many goals do our def contribute in a season

because i can bet you the other 3 do,terry vidic gallas

eboue ferdinand etc all grab the odd goal to help.

 

A good pair of quality fullbacks in the alves mould

would make a hell of a difference attacking wise to

our team.I know its not that simple but the back 4 dont

do enough imo.

 

2 players out there tonight have scored a goal this season i

n the starting 11 its quite poor

[alias75]

The point about the full backs is a good one but i think having better wingers makes it easier for the full backs. Arbeloa has shown glimpses going forward and Aurellio has quality if he can stay fit. I just think if you added 1 or 2 world class attacking players to what we already have you'd find the performances from others improved. It would have a knock on effect throughout the team.

[Jim D]

The point about the full backs is a good one but i think having better wingers makes it easier for the full backs. Arbeloa has shown glimpses going forward and Aurellio has quality if he can stay fit. I just think if you added 1 or 2 world class attacking players to what we already have you'd find the performances from others improved. It would have a knock on effect throughout the team.

 

Agree with that, the defence is good enough as it is, I think its time for us to stop buying 2nd rate attacking players and go out and get top class players because we will never improve as an attacking unit if we stick with the current mentality. Get rid of some squad players, the squad is too big as it is, raise some significant funds and go for it.

[Guest GrandpaSimpson]

The problem is that we've bought AVERAGE players who just cant do it week in week out: I'm talking about Kuyt, Pennant, Benny etc.

[meepins]

The other option is to take a gamble like say on a couple of very talented south american based players and hope we get a kaka!

Theres good odds of uncovering that kind of player. Don't ye know every other Argie/Brazilian is the next Maradonna/Pele ... or so I am led to believe.

[RafaShanks]

This has gotta be the most toothless bunch of attacking players we've ever had.

 

What makes it worse is Rafa's stubborness with not giving Crouchy and Babel more pitch time.

 

Any opposing team has to do is stop Torres and Stevie from scoring and they've got the job done.

[alias75]

This has gotta be the most toothless bunch of attacking players we've ever had.

 

What makes it worse is Rafa's stubborness with not giving Crouchy and Babel more pitch time.

 

Any opposing team has to do is stop Torres and Stevie from scoring and they've got the job done.

 

Thats how it feels at the moment however poor these players are the law of averages says they should contribute something during the season but the contributions of some over a season are abysmal when you compare it with other attacking players at other PL clubs.

 

Benayoun and Babel at least have contributed something, but when you look at players like Kewell, Penannt, Kuyt its all very well talking about keeping possession and giving the team balance but is it too much to ask for an assist or goal at some point. We must get one of the worst returns from our wide players in terms of goals and assists of any PL team.

[Cunny]

personnel is half of the problem - the state of the squad when he took over and a limited budget (compared to the mancs/chelsea) are mitigating factors in this. the need to go for mid level buys to build the squad up in quantity.

playing with the 'handbrake on' against teams there for the taking is the other half and Rafa has to take full responsibility for this - the mancs and Arsenal would have torn into wigan tonight and won at a canter.

[crisps]

Opposition manager: -

 

you four mark gerrard, you four mark torres, the rest of em will do feck all

 

it is true

[Kindred]

For me, a large part of failure to break teams down is due to poor, unintelligent off the ball movement. Tonights goal came about due to good intelligent movement, from Finnan continuing a run inside into the box, with Gerrard pulling out wide, confusing the defenders, followed by Torres reading what was about to happen and making the run forward to arrive at the right moment in the box. But, as far as I can remember that was the one and only time anything like that happened, where we actually broke them down rather than shooting from range or waiting for a mistake.

 

I'm wondering if part of that problem is the makeup of the squad. We have 4 strikers (Torres, Crouch, Voronin & Kuyt) all with completely different skills & styles of play. We have 4 'wide' players (Benayoun, Babel, Pennant, Kewell) all with different syles of play. We have 4 central midifielders (Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Sissoko) all with a different style of play. Now, with the rotation system which Rafa uses, where most games have 3,4 or 5 changes from the previous game, the entire makeup of our team is completely different to the previous one. There is little possiblilty of maintaining any kind of team pattern of play from one game to the next. So it takes a very long time for players to build confidence in each other, in order for them to have the confidence to make the run forward knowing that the ball will be controlled and delivered to them by the player they are passing to, without leaving a massive gap behind them if the ball doesn't get forward to them. (hope that makes sense!)

 

I can obviously see the sense in having one or two players in the squad like Crouch or Babel who can come on from the bench and change a game but it seems the entire squad is made up of players suited to completely different styles of play. Surely, as one of the top clubs around we should be going out onto the field (particularly at home) with the attitude - 'stop us if you can!' and forcing our style of play onto the opposition and not changing the make up of our team to suit the opposition to our detriment. By all means, make small tactical adjustments within our team to help combat any potential threat, but not by ripping our team apart week after week.

 

Reading that back ,it sounds a little too negative of my general feelings towards Rafa. I generally feel that the quality of our football this season has improved from previous years and also feel that because of the change of ownership, rafa has gained an extra year, so to speak, in that last summer was largely spent undoing some of his previous work (i.e. selling the likes of Bellamby) and improving on them with a new higher level of financial backing i.e. Torres; to the point where last season can effectively be written off as the 'playing field' has now moved up a notch.

 

Whilst I'm waffling (I'm sure very few will have made it this far!), I'll just throw in the team that I would love to see us employ with our current players.

 

 

................Alonso...........Mascherano

 

 

...Gerrard..........Benayoun...........Kewell

 

 

........................Torres

 

 

 

Personally feel that that places all our best players in their best positions and also most of the other squad members would also play well in the formation with one or two exceptions.

 

 

(Apologies, didn't mean to go on so much)

[Walrus]

................Alonso...........Mascherano

...Gerrard..........Benayoun...........Kewell Babel

........................Torres

[meepins]

Opposition manager: -

 

you four mark gerrard, you four mark torres, the rest of em will do feck all

 

it is true

Funnily enough I think I saw Bruce hand signal three defenders on Torres before the subs came on, so that comment isn't far off.

[RafaShanks]

Benayoun---Gerrard---Masch---Babel

--------------Crouch---Torres----------

 

This is the only formation that Rafa should be playing for EVERY SINGLE home game.

[AJ The Red]

I dont like alonso and masch in the center personally,

you need more drive forward and i dont thin they compliment

each other at all.Either with sg makes sense but not together

for me they both sit way too deep.

[Kindred]

Would be quite happy with that as well. (Babel for Kewell that is!)

Edited January 2, 2008 by Kindred

[alias75]

I dont like alonso and masch in the center personally,

you need more drive forward and i dont thin they compliment

each other at all.Either with sg makes sense but not together

for me they both sit way too deep.

 

If you have wide players that are bombing on and attacking their full backs and full backs that are getting forward theres nothing wrong with those two in the middle because they give that protection and plug the gaps. Its almost 4 defenders and the rest getting forward. The problem is our attacking players arent good enough and then that makes you think maybe we could sacrifice one of them in the middle to get another attacking player in the team.

 

If our attacking players were good enough in the first place and doing the job their paid for (creating and scoring) it wouldn't be an issue.

[Barnesy_10]

Opposition manager: -

 

you four mark gerrard, you four mark torres, the rest of em will do feck all

 

it is true

Football First showed Steve Bruce wave 8 fingers at the Wigan players after they scored... obviously meaning to get onto Gerrard... and straight away you could see them harrassing him all the time...

[meepins]

I dont like alonso and masch in the center personally,

you need more drive forward and i dont thin they compliment

each other at all.Either with sg makes sense but not together

for me they both sit way too deep.

Like Alias said, in order for it to work and it should work really well - you need quality out wide. There wasn't today. Kewell was abysmal, so much so that the crowd were audibly getting on his case. Pennant first game in months wasn't up to much.. I don't rate him anyway as he's average at his best. Gerrard should be free on the right and not running back into the centre of midfield to pick up the ball. (f*cking ridiculous position for him to be playing off the striker like I've said time and again) Ste and Mascher were picking the ball up where you would expect Alonso to be dictating the play. That said Alonso is only coming back after a long time out. I can understand why people would be questioning his contribution though.