The Way Forward

[richwilks]

It really bothers me seeing that we are struggling to raise the money to put together a package for Mascherano.

 

Here we have a world class player, possibly the best in his position in the world desperate to sign for us. We have a manager, again one of the best in the world desperate to sign him yet somehow we are struggling to put a deal together. We are Liverpool Football Club, perhaps someone should remind the Americans of that.

 

Big money isn't needed to change the fortunes of this club, just the right money spent in the right positions.

 

We have 3 of the top central midfielders in the world, let's play them all and build the team around that strong spine. We have a striker who has played upfront on his own for year after year and been good enough to play that position, lead the line and score goals.

 

We have a 20 year old wonderkid who has played on the left hand side of a 3 pronged attack for the last few years. Let's accomodate him.

 

Finally we have endless players in the squad who have a decent market value and offer nothing to our first eleven yet we feel the need to include them in games. Let's sell them on.

 

------------Reina----------

 

Arbeloa - Agger - Carragher - Aurelio

 

--------Mascherano-----------

----Gerrard -----Alonso---------

 

Queresma------------Babel

------------Torres--------

 

If you give players like Queresma and Babel the opportunity to get forward and play their game, to support Torres then they will excel, they'll create goals and they'll score goals.

 

With Gerrard and Alonso haveing Mascherano mopping up in front of the back four they will get space to play the ball and get forward. Alonso can supply endless ammunition and Gerrard can get forward.

 

Players like Riise, Carson, Sissoko, Vorinin etc aren't required, not even Kuyt s required. Bring in someone like Heinze who can operate at left back and center back, a striker who can operate by himself to cover Torres or to partner him when needed.

 

The back up for that team is still in the squad. Players like Insua, Lucas, Hyypia, Hobbs, Kewell, Pennant, Benayoun, Finnan etc. Let's concentrate on bringing in 18-22 year olds to cover those positions and learn their roles.

 

Finally let's make sure that those Americans don't spoil Liverpool football club because to me it is clear that as soon as Rafa doesn't deliver the title he'll be sacked, we can't allow that to happen.

[Gunga Din]

i'd love to see Mascherano here permanently, but to be honest, if its a choice between shelling out 17mil for him or a similar amount for a winger or a striker, i'll take the winger or Striker every time, because at the minute we have Gerrard, Alonso and Lucas for central midfield, (assuming Sissoko is sold) whereas we have, apart from Torres, no forward or attacking players who are good enough to allow us to challenge for the league

[liveabiglife]

Finally let's make sure that those Americans don't spoil Liverpool football club because to me it is clear that as soon as Rafa doesn't deliver the title he'll be sacked, we can't allow that to happen.

 

Interesting stuff. I agree with pretty much all of what you said. If the Yanks don't secure Masch then it will only further prove they haven't got a clue about football.

 

For me, though, your last statement is key. Rafa frustrates the hell out of me sometimes, but he is clearly building a squad, and while I'm guilty of not always believing this - he does know what he's doing. What the Yanks seem to be doing now is pulling the funds before he gets chance to get the roof on and do the final fix on what he's building. Like you said, we need a centre back - and I'd second Heinze - and we need someone else to complement Torres up front. Then Rafa needs to be given the time, and budget, to bring in talent for the future.

 

I want to see us win the PL this year, but if I'm honest, I'd rather win it 8 years out of 10 - we'll give ourselves a couple of runner sup places in our 'off' seasons ; - starting with our last year at Anfield, with Rafa having built his squad in the intervening period. We want instant success - and I hold my hands up to that one - guilty as charged - but the reality is that success built slowly will last longer - Ferguson and Wenger are proof of that, imo.

[Gunga Din]

Interesting stuff. I agree with pretty much all of what you said. If the Yanks don't secure Masch then it will only further prove they haven't got a clue about football.

 

For me, though, your last statement is key. Rafa frustrates the hell out of me sometimes, but he is clearly building a squad, and while I'm guilty of not always believing this - he does know what he's doing. What the Yanks seem to be doing now is pulling the funds before he gets chance to get the roof on and do the final fix on what he's building. Like you said, we need a centre back - and I'd second Heinze - and we need someone else to complement Torres up front. Then Rafa needs to be given the time, and budget, to bring in talent for the future.

 

I want to see us win the PL this year, but if I'm honest, I'd rather win it 8 years out of 10 - we'll give ourselves a couple of runner sup places in our 'off' seasons ; - starting with our last year at Anfield, with Rafa having built his squad in the intervening period. We want instant success - and I hold my hands up to that one - guilty as charged - but the reality is that success built slowly will last longer - Ferguson and Wenger are proof of that, imo.

 

 

Wenger got most of his successes very quickly. Arsenal havent won anything in ages.

 

Ferguson is the only manager who has built his success slowly. every other manager who has won the league in the last 30 years or so has won the title in their first 3 or 4 seasons

[Sion]

To borrow a well known YNWA.tv catchphrase

 

I'll go f***ing spare if we sign Quaresma

[richwilks]

To borrow a well known YNWA.tv catchphrase

 

I'll go f***ing spare if we sign Quaresma

 

Queresma may not necessarily be the best option. My point is that we need to add someone flanking the right of Torres like Babel would the left. Someone quick, someone who has moments of individual brilliance, someone who is going to create something with a trick or burst of speed.

 

I think that XI would cause any team in the world problems. We all know that the back 5 and keeper are top drawer, they can shut teams out.

 

That front 5 would cause any team in the world problems. Alonso can see and pick a pass, Gerrard can drive the team forward and grab any game by the scruff of the neck. Babel offers incredible pace, ability to beat a man and an incredible shot. Queresma is a bag of tricks and can create and score goals. Torres is a great finisher, has incredible pace and can take men on and lead the line.

 

If you look at Utd and Arsenal they attack with pace and with players who can do all of the above. At the moment we are limiting some of our best players, Babel shouldn't be tracking back all the time and starting his runs from inside our half, he should be starting them half way inside the oppo half. Kuyt keeps dropping wide and trying to get crosses in and beat men, let's get a skilful attacking winger like Queresma who can do that far better than Kuyt.

 

I'm sure the side would strike fear into teams.

[liveabiglife]

Wenger got most of his successes very quickly. Arsenal havent won anything in ages.

 

Ferguson is the only manager who has built his success slowly. every other manager who has won the league in the last 30 years or so has won the title in their first 3 or 4 seasons

 

That's true, and I totally take yoru point, and don't argue with it, and I'd have to agree with you.

 

I was thinking more of this year's Arsenal team. This season, it seems that Wenger may have a core team that could be capable of challenging for a good few years to come, and he built it up, and was given the time to do it. We aren't far from having the same thing, it seems to me.

 

Part of me just wants to believe that there has to be more ways of measuring success than silverware. If the Yanks want to treat a football club as a business, then they need to do that all-in, not just cherry pick the parts that suit them. That means planning, resourcing, building and measuring. They can't (well they can, but they shouldn't) pick the parts of developing a business that means they can shoot the manager. If they wanted to shoot him, they should have done that on day one.

 

At the risk of veering of topic and turning this into a 'Rafa' thread, but I think teh whole think is intertwined - at the start of the season I wanted Rafa gone: we were utterly c**P: couldn't score, couldn't pass. For me, teh solution was a new manager. But the more I think about it, the more I realise what an a**e that makes me, and now I really think that would have been a mistake; we are still inconsistent, and chances are we could end up with nothing this season, but I'm not sure that would justify the Yanks getting rid of Rafa.

 

I'd love to see the Yanks agree a three year plan with him - start with this season, finance it properly and build in measurable milestones that, as well as silverware, have more intangible progress signposts. Maybe that's wishful thinking, maybe I have just come to liek Rafa too much and I'm being too sentimental. Will I think the same when we are languishing in sixth and fighting to stay in a UEFA spot? Probably not, but that's my issue to deal with, not Rafa's.

 

For me, if they wanted shot of Rafa they should have done it straight away; they didn't, so now they need to give him a chance. Central to that is time and resources, imo.

 

If there's a quick path to glory I'm happy to take it, but I don't think there is. (I'm not suggesting you were saying any different, btw).

[Coyler]

Ferguson is the only manager who has built his success slowly. every other manager who has won the league in the last 30 years or so has won the title in their first 3 or 4 seasons

I really don't think it's fair to include Dalglish, Fagan, or maybe even Paisley in this. Not to denigrate their early-season achievements one iota, but they all inherited winners or very recent winners at a club that was solidly on the perch.

Edited January 2, 2008 by Coyler

[Gunga Din]

I really don't think it's fair to include Dalglish, Fagan, or maybe even Paisley in this. Not to denigrate their early-season achievements one iota, but they all inherited winners or very recent winners at a club that was solidly on the perch.

 

Dalglish at Blackburn? but take it back even further, take it back to the 50's and the point still stands.

[sutty]

Dalglish at Blackburn? but take it back even further, take it back to the 50's and the point still stands.

 

He spunked a load of cash, as did Mourinho.

 

It's difficult to draw any trends really

[Gunga Din]

He spunked a load of cash, as did Mourinho.

 

It's difficult to draw any trends really

 

its not really that difficult. managers, if they are ever going to win the league, tend to do so in their first 3 or 4 seasons. Ferguson being the only real exception

[sutty]

its not really that difficult. managers, if they are ever going to win the league, tend to do so in their first 3 or 4 seasons. Ferguson being the only real exception

 

That ignores any context though, particularly recently with economic power being with so few clubs and the influx of high class foreign players.

 

30 years ago a team could come up from div 2 and win div 1 the next year.

 

That'll never happen in the current environment.

 

The trend is there if you look at it only superficially. You do any digging and it doesn't necessarily hold water as an argument.

[Coyler]

Dalglish at Blackburn? but take it back even further, take it back to the 50's and the point still stands.

That's another problem: the entirely different eras. You might as well use the modern-day League of Ireland as an example of how new managers succeed if you're using the '50s or '60s or even the '70s in England.

[_00_deathscar]

Wenger got most of his successes very quickly. Arsenal havent won anything in ages.

 

Ferguson is the only manager who has built his success slowly. every other manager who has won the league in the last 30 years or so has won the title in their first 3 or 4 seasons

 

When Benítez came, we were pipping Charlton and Everton to 4th place. Comparisions with Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal are futile.

 

How many managers would have come into our club and taken us to the top with our resources?

[Gilps]

Dalglish at Blackburn? but take it back even further, take it back to the 50's and the point still stands.

 

It does kind of stand, especially when you consider you missed Clough from this list you put in the other thread:

 

the vast majority of clubs dont win a title.

the point is, Wenger, Mourinho, Dalglish x 2, Graham, Wilkinson, Kendall, Fagan, Paisley and on you go backwards and backwards all won the league in their first 3 or 4 seasons. Ferguson is the exception, not the rule

 

Although Saunders would be another exception of course, albeit not quite as notable as Ferguson.

[The_Adder]

It really bothers me seeing that we are struggling to raise the money to put together a package for Mascherano.

 

Here we have a world class player, possibly the best in his position in the world desperate to sign for us. We have a manager, again one of the best in the world desperate to sign him yet somehow we are struggling to put a deal together. We are Liverpool Football Club, perhaps someone should remind the Americans of that.

 

Big money isn't needed to change the fortunes of this club, just the right money spent in the right positions.

 

We have 3 of the top central midfielders in the world, let's play them all and build the team around that strong spine. We have a striker who has played upfront on his own for year after year and been good enough to play that position, lead the line and score goals.

 

We have a 20 year old wonderkid who has played on the left hand side of a 3 pronged attack for the last few years. Let's accomodate him.

 

Finally we have endless players in the squad who have a decent market value and offer nothing to our first eleven yet we feel the need to include them in games. Let's sell them on.

 

------------Reina----------

 

Arbeloa - Agger - Carragher - Aurelio

 

--------Mascherano-----------

----Gerrard -----Alonso---------

 

Queresma------------Babel

------------Torres--------

 

If you give players like Queresma and Babel the opportunity to get forward and play their game, to support Torres then they will excel, they'll create goals and they'll score goals.

 

With Gerrard and Alonso haveing Mascherano mopping up in front of the back four they will get space to play the ball and get forward. Alonso can supply endless ammunition and Gerrard can get forward.

 

Players like Riise, Carson, Sissoko, Vorinin etc aren't required, not even Kuyt s required. Bring in someone like Heinze who can operate at left back and center back, a striker who can operate by himself to cover Torres or to partner him when needed.

 

The back up for that team is still in the squad. Players like Insua, Lucas, Hyypia, Hobbs, Kewell, Pennant, Benayoun, Finnan etc. Let's concentrate on bringing in 18-22 year olds to cover those positions and learn their roles.

 

Finally let's make sure that those Americans don't spoil Liverpool football club because to me it is clear that as soon as Rafa doesn't deliver the title he'll be sacked, we can't allow that to happen.

 

CLAP CLAP TOP POST.

 

I wish you were American.

[Gunga Din]

When Benítez came, we were pipping Charlton and Everton to 4th place. Comparisions with Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal are futile.

 

How many managers would have come into our club and taken us to the top with our resources?

 

 

unless i'm missing something Benitez hasnt taken us to the top. he has taken us to 3rd twice, and 5th once. and for your Everton and Charlton, now read Man City and Everton.

[Gunga Din]

It does kind of stand, especially when you consider you missed Clough from this list you put in the other thread:

 

 

 

Although Saunders would be another exception of course, albeit not quite as notable as Ferguson.

 

 

Saunders perhaps, but he took Villa out of the second division, and won the league within 4 seasons of being in the first

[Coyler]

Bet you Saunders wouldn't have rested Torres either.

[sutty]

Saunders perhaps, but he took Villa out of the second division, and won the league within 4 seasons of being in the first

 

I think that that sort of split (div 1 v div 2 quality) is happening actually within the top division.

 

You need to bridge a gap before you can look at winning it.

[Earl Hafler]

i'd love to see Mascherano here permanently, but to be honest, if its a choice between shelling out 17mil for him or a similar amount for a winger or a striker, i'll take the winger or Striker every time, because at the minute we have Gerrard, Alonso and Lucas for central midfield, (assuming Sissoko is sold) whereas we have, apart from Torres, no forward or attacking players who are good enough to allow us to challenge for the league

 

If it came down to a choice then that would be my take on it aswell but i don't think we're in that situation.

 

I think Rafa had to give assurances about selling a centre mid if we're signing Mascherano. Sissoko is the obvious choice

 

Carson, Riise, Kuyt /Crouch, Momo and Pennant is approx £35-40m worth of players i think we can do without.

[Gunga Din]

I think that that sort of split (div 1 v div 2 quality) is happening actually within the top division.

 

You need to bridge a gap before you can look at winning it.

 

do you think we have bridged that gap in the last 3 and a half years?

[sutty]

do you think we have bridged that gap in the last 3 and a half years?

 

To an extent.

 

The problem is that the bar has been moving upwards as well.

[johngibo YPC]

I just think you have to spend money on world class players when they are available. We have got ourselves in a brillaint position with Masch that probably wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. We know he is world class and we know his value so sign him. What if we decide to spend 17m on a striker and he ends up no better than what we have? Kuyt was 10m wasn't he?

Sign him up, play him in the middle with Alonso with Gerrard on the right, and then worry about the other positions

[Gunga Din]

To an extent.

 

The problem is that the bar has been moving upwards as well.

 

it hasnt though. the last three seasons the winners have had 95 points, 91 points and 89 points. 85 will probably win it this season, so if anything, "The Bar" is coming down.