Chewie

thanks for the clarity Molby...that's how I read your understanding of the situation... but what's your estimation of say the understanding of carra and stevie in this or indeed what Tom and George have said all along about rafa and his shrewd management and then the rafarant the day after the final? Chewie

you see...when you say that added to your earlier comment that Rick Parry is on his way should that be taken as a rhetorical statement in that you know something or is it a genuine question.... part of my instinct...not having any 'knowledge' of the goings on at all...was to wonder the same thing as you're suggesting, but if Gerrard knew all this then why the Rafarant the other day about action and spending big and so on...on the day of the final SKY were running a feature on George and Tom...the one when George started laughing waving notes about...in that interview when asked about budgets and so on their response was very different from the Rafarant...basically they said how unhelpful it was to speak about budgets and that when they speak to Rafa he doesn't speak of budgets. They said he was a very very shrewd and intelligent man who understands that to build a team does not necessarily mean acquiring a load of superstar players...which is 100% spot on (and indeed is not totally an either or...sometimes superstar players can be part of great teams!!) but the inference was that the sort of stuff we heard in the rafarant was not the sort of stuff they had heard before....Now the part when rafa spoke of taking too much time to complete deals was surely aimed at Parry but the part about the money needed could not have been... there's lots of noises but not a lot of clarity, and bascombe's article and the inside info that say Molby is passing on all seems totally out of the blue (to an average dozer like me...) Chewie

thing that gets me is that the graciousness with which the players, carra and stevie, accepted defeat in Athens seemed to suggest that we are on inevitable rise to glory and that Athens was a blip on the way.... stevie's disappointment was in a sense soothed by the realisation that big things are happening and we are going places... for all this to come out suggests that his optimism stated in the raw aftermath of a crushing defeat rather than in a cleverly worded and prepared piece of PR spin was either wrong or that something has happened in the past few days...? timing just seems strange...Athens was hard to take but not impossible because the reaction was not one off doom in that we would never get there again but rather one of optimism in that this is where we belong and where we will be for some considerable time to come...now though it seems senior members of the staff ain't talking and there's lots of major issues going on behind the scenes.... Chewie

in what way Fred...I guess I was meaning that he can break up play the way Momo does without the consequent loss of possession...maybe I'm comparing Masch to Momo's deficencies rather than say to Alonso's quality of distribution... but then elsewhere Rafa sometimes refers to momo as more of a forward influence, as if Alonso and Masch are his deep midfielders and Gerrard and momo his attacking ones....if this Brazilian kid comes in does that mean momo is a more likely departure?.... genuinely, in what way do you think Masch isn't like a better combination of both and how do you think they complement each other / compare with each other? Chewie

i honestly cannot believe I'm even considering this but I'm really wondering if it is in fact time for Alonso to go. It has taken some time to admit to this possibility and it is not a case either of thinking that because we have one player in that automatically means another should go... but unless we dramatically change our attacking options at full-back and wide midfield I am wondering if Alonso is inhibiting our attacking force. Alonso and Sissoko offer very little of an attacking presence through the middle...one breaks up the game but gives the ball away and the other passes it sideways. Mascherano is kind of like both players combined...like Didi he reads and breaks up the game but keeps up the momentum through decent distribution. This allows Gerrard to actually be a driving force through the middle and allows us to play with an additional forward (be it a target man or indeed a creative attacker) I really loved Alonso in his first year and a half but his influence on our ability to attack a game has waned considerably...is there now a case for his possible departure if (and only if) it means we have even more funds to purchase quality attacking players? I only want to raise the debate...as I see many of the arguments for keeping him, namely that if we acquire genuine attacking width then Alonso can feed those players all day long - and there may well be games when we feel that attacking down the flanks is the most appropriate whilst there are games when we need more drive through the middle... I guess I could accept him leaving if his departure significantly assists in the development of the team and if he in fact wishes a new challenge..... I know this post seems a bag of contradictions but that's how I'm feeling at the moment about Xabi...I want him to be the player I thought he was going to become....one of the best midfielders in the world, but at the moment I wonder if his lack of influence alongside a holding midfielder (so favoured by Rafa) is one of the reasons why we are about 20 - 25 goals short... confused Chewie

I agree with this...keeping Masch on would have meant we could continue to control their attacking threat whilst Gerrard, Pennant and Kewell would have had Kuyt and Crouch to target...Alonso offers us a 'passing option' but unfortunately his passes are more sideways and slower to release than a year or two ago...last night we just needed a bit more than that and unfortunately I think taking Masch off was the wrong decision....in much the same way that two years ago having Hamann on allowed us to be more effective going forward - ironically...

things I thought we should have changed last night would have been 1. Subs at the same time 60 minutes - Kewell for Zenden, and Crouch for Alonso - with Alonso and Mascherano in the middle we can dictate play but there is no cutting edge through the middle. Macherano is more than capable of being the holder and Gerrard the driver...with two wide men Crouch and Kuyt should have been given at least 20 minutes to work together 2. If that didn't work then with 10 minutes to go I'ld have went for Bellamy for Finnan.... 3 at the back with Bellamy and Kewell working the left channels....Kuyt and Pennant doubling up on the right and Crouch through the middle... we did ourselves proud last night and showed everything that was good and bad about us...no longer a lucky team that everyone is shocked to see there but we need to be more than just really solid....at least 25 goals is needed next season... Chewie

I logged on to start a thread about how the nerves were building and to ask if anyone else was starting to feel the same.... after the semis I was just so happy and content that we were through and that there was no danger of losing to the mancs...in a sense making the final was all I needed...even the prospect of defeat was one of defeat to a club like Milan and there's no shame in that... ...but now!!! just read an article on UEFA.com about gattuso and gerrard and there's butterflies...starting to feel it and all of a sudden the prospect of just competing isn't enough!!! it's only gonna get worse Chewie

any web link to these ads? Chewie

you're right actually...let's ban all talk about the final, all coincidences about Ken and Deirdre, all mention of lucky socks or pubs....what have I been thinking....if it isn't gonna change the outcome of the game then we really shouldn't bother... wow, its a lot more fun now that I've seen the light Chewie

c'mon the poll on UEFA.com is on who will win the final and at the minute Milan are ahead 58 - 42.... get in for the mighty reds! Chewie http://www.uefa.com/

Nah, sorry about that... no...at least I think so....

send it to me and I'll let you know...on the 24th

eh...I'm confused now!! I thought the big sticky in all of this is that Premier League rules forbid a club to have a player that is owned by an outside third party...I know that players may legally be loaned to other clubs but wasn't the problem here that West Ham needed to legally 'own' the player or have him on loan from another club....? don't want this to get too off-track from transfer speculation...bottom line is that we have to pay something to someone and if West Ham are relegated and they are the selling 'person' then that will be in our favour...or will it.... Chewie

how come that Kia bloke is touting Tevez about when West Ham say that contract was torn up and that they are now supposed to own the player? If Kia's remarks are anything to go by you can bet your bottom dollar that Wigan Sheff Utd and so on will be furious and will be well up for complaining...and even if the contract was torn up does that mean that a transfer was completed outside of the transfer window? The issue for us in all of this is the price needed to get Tevez - who do we have to pay money to - West Ham or some other company? If West Ham go down he may be cheaper? Confused Chewie

not that I want to suggest that it's impossible to get a great player from a lower team...or that we shouldn't be looking for good value no matter who we sign...but last year we took Pennant because Birmingham got relegated and we couldn't afford Alves...we took Bellamy because he had a clause in his contract allowing him to go at a 'good price'...and so on...these signings can work and I really hope that Pennant stays as I think he could work out... but surely this summer with all the optimism over the takeover, a new stadium, another European Cup final with the profile and revenue this generates...we should be looking beyond getting a player simply because his circumstances mean he might be a little more affordable than before.... this is the time to really push on...not sure which of our managers said it - reckon it was Paisley - but the key to success is great players...not simply big-name players - but real genuine quality. Remember when Rush left....Barnes, Beardsley, , Aldridge, Houghton...that's the sort of summer we need now. One where the signings bring that real step up in class, consistency and competitiveness.... that's the aim this summer and anything less will be a missed opportunity Chewie

he's well used to making a few saves...just ask Henry in 2001!

what about that guy Leto? is he going to be in the first team squad from the off as well... Gonzalez, Kewell, Leto, Aurelio, Riise...which of these will be on the left next season and does Leto mean that we ain't going to be looking for players 'from the top table (Hicks)' for that side? mind you if this new guy from brazil is anything to go by Rafa's heading for about three players in every position anyway - basic question...what's the story with Leto...is he ready yet and what impact does this have for the left hand side? Chewie...

always loved the Brann Bergen goal...pure genius.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPr-TvRyJZc Chewie

think it matters to give rafa the optimum time to plan for the new season...Fergie has caught on that to win this league you need to get off to a flyer....5-6 years ago you could win it with 80 points and a strong second half of the season...now you need to be in the hunt at Nov or else you're chasing champions league positions... rafa is pretty keen, it would seem, on conditioning players in the right way pre-season so that they are still fit and strong at thi stime of teh season...I'm sure he wants to get new players integrated in terms of tactics, surroundings, other players and fitness as soon as possible also think it will be a real shot in the arm not to be sitting around on deadline day wondering if we might get a player or not.... think it matters a lot actually.... Chewie

obviously with our season going to the very last European game of the season..... ...it means that the focus is all on the Champions league from here on in... with the profile of another European final, the cash in the bank etc how soon do you reckon it'll be before we'll be signing up players for next season.... I know that all of these transfers will be complicated and so on...but whereas before we've had brinkmanship and bartering up until the last day of the transfer window do you think things will be different this time...? Ideally it'ld be great to have everyone in place for pre-season...does anyone think that'll happen? Chewie

I agree with you on that point, but in a way that reinforces my thinking. Rafa sets his team up in certain ways, Arsene in other ways, Fergie in other ways. They look for different things and have differing emphasis on the role of the team and the necessity for individuality within the team. That's all fine in terms of permeating down the system, but if the system depends on the presence of one key individual then that makes the whole thing suspect and is ironically the very antithesis of what Rafa wants from his team - which is a system that is made of up of individuals but is not reliant on any one single player! If Rafa demands total control of the first team that's fair enough - he lives or dies by its output...but if he demands total control of all aspects of footballing development at the club then we better hope he lives or the club will die...(I've used the analogy for dramatic effect but the point remains...either Rafa gets it right and sticks for the very long term, or we'll be caused to seriously reappraise things in the very near future)..... This is not saying that Rafa is not the man to do this, just highlighting that the stakes have risen in terms of getting it right...but if Rafa is a man of his convictions and a man to see a job finished then it may go very very well for us....time will tell Chewie

all of this makes one huge big assumption - that Rafa is going to be here for the long term. if that's true then great but wrestling control away from a dedicated Director of the Youth Academy leaves the club facing unstability should the first team manager leave. Even if he places his coaches in charge and they are contracted to Liverpool he is likely to take them with him. There is also the prospect of players being groomed to play according to the systems of one tactician and then finding a successor having very different ideas. Real class will always 'out' - there is a reason why some young players simply just make it at the age of 17 - 19 without having to play reserve games etc... although Carra made it young onto our first team the fact that he played so many u-21 caps seemed to suggest that he was never going to be good enough for the very highest level. The fact that he has changed this is a credit to himself and happened once he was already in the first team squad, not at youth level. every now and again an academy just happens to get a group of players that simply just make it - United got it that group 12 years ago and have been living off some reputation as being a breeding ground for young talent ever since, despite having bought every player in their side since...West Ham produced a really good crop and then had to sell em all... our day will come too but it will have more to do with the players genuine quality and the academy being there to maintain that until it is ready that any great transformation brought about by the academy itself. What Rafa wants is the ability to drop in his players from overseas and for his coaches to coach in a certain way...Liam Brady talks about how Arsene has every team at Arsenal playing according to his values and the way he wants them to play and it seems to have worked for them...but what happens if Arsene leaves next year? My only other concern with the article itself is Heighway's remark about how it is only he who believes in pass and move anymore. This suggests to me a move towards more tactically minded development to suit the needs of the first team, rather than developing the basic skills (which I'm sure will also be addressed). Once again though this needs Rafa to stick it out.... If all this means that Rafa is here for the next 10 years and wants to build an empire then great...if not then I'm more worried than I was two weeks ago when we had a long term strategy at the club that was not dependant on the employment of one absolutely key individual Chewie

totally - that's just about it all summed up right there....couldn't be happier or more content...the mancs not getting there is a huge weight off!! Chewie