Chewie

funny...couldn't help but think the same about our lack of concern over the loss of the 'under-rated' Riise ;) Chewie

was it out of sheer affection and loyalty given that Liverpool fans have supposedly been loyal and patient with their managers...was it sheer defiance in watching a little guy taking on the new owners who are increasingly under the spotlight of distrust...or was it an entrenched belief that come what may Rafa is the best man to take Liverpool forward... I've sat and read most posts on this forum and I've even posted my own concerns about how points wise Rafa has been closer to the managers of teams like Everton, Tottenham and now even Man City than those of United, Arsenal or Chelsea and I've reached the point where above all else what I want is certainty! If the new bosses genuinely do not want Rafa to be at the helm and if the show of support for him was a romantic one and not based on hard-headed opinion about wanting Rafa to stay then let's make the change now and throw all the support behind whoever comes in - vocally and financially... If however Rafa is to stay then equally I want to see him backed to the hilt now to make a serious step forward. This for me is the preferred option (but only after my knee has stopped jerking this past 24 hours) and here's why... 1. Under Rafa we have a squad that is of real value in terms of £s - that is a tribute to what he has done compared to the inherited squad that he had to give away...this tells me that even though we have doubted some of his buys that on teh whole we are better off in terms of average quality... 2. He has spent a heck of a lot of money and perhaps in hindsight he might have spent the same money on half the players but on better ones and tried to blend these in with whatever he could in terms of reserves and inherited players... nonetheless he has been purchasing strikers (Torres apart) for half the price that United have been purchasing defensive midfielders. At our peak we never shirked from flexing the financial muscle to replace quality with even better quality (Dalglish for Keegan, the summer of 87...) 3. The quality players at our disposal are genuine class...reina, gerrard, carra, agger, alonso, mascherano, torres and possibly Babel. There are lesser lights who add depth and there are players that we could sell and who all would sell at a decent value... It's time to sift off the quality 2nd tier players who have brought us so far and replace them with fewer 1st tier quality replacements. Having built the base already mentioned Rafa needs to be given the chance to finish the job and then stand or fall on the completed project... when you see the quality of Masch and Torres you see why figures of 17 and 20 million are mentioned... It's time to back him or sack him. To keep him in place but not allow him to actually finish the task is a recipe for disillusionment and disaffection... oh...and Rafa, please show your quality now by keeping the mouth shut and getting a decent no.2 in Chewie

agree with this...was listening to some stuff on the radio about how Rafa has spent more than Fergie since he's been here (don't worry about the net figure - basic point stands...Rafa has spent more £s than Fergie in the same period to bring in the players he feels he needed). The point though is this - Rafa needed to spend more money on a greater number of players than Fergis had to. Fergie spent less money on less players with greater quality. Rafa has had to spend more money on more players with less quality... If its a choice between a smaller squad with greater quality or a larger squad with lesser first team quality then I'm all for the former... the point though is this...when Rafa inherited the base on which to build was this - Gerrard and Carra... now the base on which to build is Reina, Agger, Carra, Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Babel, Torres... there's a core of lesser lights that add to what we have ...Lucas, Arbeleo, Benayoun, Finnan, Aurelio everyone else is up for grabs to be replaced by fewer players but with genuine quality...the lack of strength in depth can be mitigated against by doing a Wenger and starting to play all these foreign kids we've been bringing in in the two cups... Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin - replace with one truly great forward Sissoko, Pennant, Kewell - replace with one really gifted midfielder Riise, Hyypia - time's up for a genuine classy defender... keep the core quality and let our reserves and youth team players believe they have a chance of pushing for something... what's the point of playing in our reservces if you look at the first team squad and see over 30 professional players... I hate to say this but Fergie has known for a long time that the combination of hunger and quality is the key... Chewie

Most of the time on here we compare Rafa to Fergie or to Wenger or to Mourinho...but is that because we have bought int the media hype over the so called big four... we have routinely finished closer to teams managed by the likes of Moyes, Jol, Redknapp and Hughes than of those managed by those that have tasted premiership glory... now we are being surpassed by a man derided by the English Press for being swedish...in his first year in charge not to mention the unpredictable but undeniably impressive exploits of Moyes (on a vastly inferior budget and club profile) not to mention the football now being played by Villa under O'Neill... in fact it will be interesting to see if we finish closer to the combined efforts of Jol and Ramos this season than to the lower of the two finishes between Wenger or Fergie... I hate to say but it's teh classic statement: the league table doesn't lie and the truth that's being told is that we are closer to consistent mediocrity than we think... Chewie

Jan is looming and the talk has centred around three players...Carson who's gone, Crouch who looks like he's going and Momo... If Carson goes we do seem to have cover so no like for like needed there.... If Crouch goes people are saying that Babel will get more time up front....if that's the case that represents two completely different approached to how we play football...In the past few games we have used a variety of players with quality on the ball (notably at full back) and also Benni, Babel, Kewell, Voronin, Torres and Crouch has not looked out of place (whereas Dirk has....) - I reckon this is actually quite a big decision.... then there's Momo - sorry but Gerrard, Momo, Alonso, Masch and Lucas just won't all fulfill their playing potential if they stay...it's just one too many (even with the African Nations Cup coming up)...it seems the decision to pursue the option in Masch's contract looms ever near and I for one would be satisified if we had to sell Momo for 12 - 15 mil if it meant keeping Masch... any other takers....? Chewie

with some personnel adjustments the team / shape that finished yesterday could win the league if given time and freedom to play and fit players....I honestly think this lot could do it... Reina Finnan Agger Carra Aurelio/Arbeloa Gerrard Masch Alonso Kewell Torres ?? (I'll go for Crouch...) that team could do it....they should play consistently and only minor changes being made in terms of subs when the game is won or one or two changes if the opposition is far weaker Babel / Benni / Pennant should be used in this way Sissoko and Lucas providing cover for the middle One of Kuyt or Crouch needs to start showing something or they'll both be out but one or the other should be the foil for Torres Gerrard and Kewell should be told to play with freedom and pace going forward but Stevie needs to be facing the opposition not his own midfield when receiving the ball so he's not a second striker that team could seriously do some damage and should be allowed to....the fringe players should only ever be rotated in and out of winning sides OR as genuine replacements for someone playing poorly knowing that if they step up to the mark they'll keep their place.... we have the players - do we have the guts? Chewie

I was away all day and managed to avoid speaking to anyone about the game until I watched the highlights on MOTD...seemed to be a stormer of a match but I thought I has turned back time...remember the days when Liverpool killed teams with possession and then Kenny added Aldo, Beardsley and Barnes into the mix and all of a sudden we killed teams with possession and pace and sheer brilliance, and remember how back in those days Arsenal were effective and boring and one-nil would do... unfortunately, now that the clock has turned forward the teams are getting it the other way round....I seriously could not believe the possession stats at the end of the game...MOTD had us at about 36%...now stats can say a lot of things and say very little at teh same time...but seriously - this is how we used to be!!! Remember how Stevie and Michael were excited about Rafa coming (yeah, even Michael) because the Valencia team that beat them was the best they had ever faced,...remember how they completely passed us off the park and were virtually untouchable....where is it going - if not badly wrong - then certainely pretty worrisome? We can still do something this year but only if we get our finger out! United and Arsenal have put their foot on the accelerator and NOW can afford to rest players in the Champions league - get the wins in, get the momentum going then introduce one or two players rotationally into a winning team... it's not doomsday or anything like that - its just frightening how far the pendulum has swung between these two teams... Chewie

1. Pako 2. Pako 3. Pako... the importance of some people is sometimes exemplified more in their absence

ideally we want Marseille to beat Porto...if we win against both Besiktas and Porto that'll put us on 7 points with Porto remaining on 5. Provided that Besiktas get nothing more than a draw from their game with Marseille then by the last round of games Marseille will have 11 points, we'll have 7, Porto will have 5 and Besiktas 4... given that we'll have a better aggregate record against Porto that'll mean we'll only need a a draw against Marseille to go thru with only 8 pts ;( think that will mean we have a tough draw in the second round (if we make it!) if Porto draw with Marseille and we then beat Porto then going into the last round Marseille will either have 9 (2 draws) or 11 (draw with Porto, win against Besiktas), we will have 7, Porto will have 6 and Besiktas will have 3 or 4. in that case any win will do and we'll not have to worry about aggregates....(in fact we could end up on top with 10 pts!) if Porto win against Marseille and Marseille beat Besiktas and we win our next two games then it gets really tricky...Marseille will have 10 pts, Porto will have 8 pts, and we will have 7 pts...at that stage we're into needed a win and a win by a certain margin ;( If however Marseille drop points against Besiktas then a straight win in Marseille will do the trick! Ideal therefore is for Marseille and us to win the next two games...a draw will do for both clubs in the last match! that clears things up.... Chewie

you know what'ld really scare em...if the fans made a concerted effort to stay absolutely fixed to their seats and didn't make a noise....let the powers that be see where their nonsense is taking the game and watch how they reply....sponsors, tv and radio need an atmosphere - take that away deliberately would be the loudest protest you could make YNWA Chewie

I'm not sure...I think in the interests of objectivity we should shut down forum discussion until May, allowing football to be what it is truly about instead of all this subjective over-involvement of way-too-interested fans...if we adopt this approach we'll all see the benefits and no longer need be worried about expressing any opinion of any degree whatsoever...the morons who do will be relegated to silence saving those who clearly know more the time and effort of lambasting anyone who disagrees with them with the fail-safe put-down of 'kneejerker' or 'shut up FFS'... see you all in May when one can properly reflect on such matters chewie

i think for keepers more than any other players the difference at that level is a mental one.... quite a lot of keepers at lower clubs look great cos they are involved quite a bit and have to make a lot of saves. The goals against columns for their teams however is rarely in the top five in the country...in short they hav emore shots to save and more chances to concede.... yet at the top clubs its concentration needed to be out of the game for long periods of time and then to make the right decisions when it really matters...the fact that you haven't been doing much for 10 - 15 minutes doesnt mean you have to get over excited at having something to do...I reckon its the ability to not be doing much and then doing the simple things well without trying to make yourself look spectacular that separates the top goalkeepers from those of similar ability outside of the top teams... quite apart from the keeper debate...how would we have done with that side if they had won it eh....Roy would have been granted a lot more years as manager and the course of history would have been very different.... what if eh....

actually I agree with you Snorky.... don't know if you remember but at the start of that season the great dope....er...dane...was having a Mare at Old Toilet and Ginsoak gave him some time off....meanwhile James was absolutely brilliant.... but come about March time it all reversed...the dane saved everything while L'Eric was knocking em in and James was flapping at everything...he never really recovered after that due to poor form and the expectation that he would have poor form...once a label is attached its hard to shift and Calamity stayed with him for a very long while.... there was just so much potential in that side and so much of the history of our club in the last decade probably turned on their inability to convert genuine quality into medals....

when's Zizou coming...

not necessarily true - David James played many blinders in the last dozen games!!! Chewie

I don't think that wasn't my point.... Chewie

on sky this morning they were showing the 1996/97 season and I just couldn't believe that I couldn't remember how badly we threw the league away that year!! It was a shocker....so many lost points at crucial times even though we were capable of playing some great football... a home loss to freakin' Coventry who were bottom of the league! scum at home when we were 1 point behing em with 4 games to go...and the downfall of David James.... that draw with everscum and fowler's red card (incidentally that gave Owen his run out...) with 4 games to go we had 64 points...by the end of the season we had 68...defeats to scum, Wimbledon and a dreary draw... honestly - that was ours to win and watching it again I almost convinced myself that we were going to do it....then the reality check came home.... the way they do those programmes too is to use actual prematch build up from the time rather than reminiscing and they had a feature on how Evans was rebuilding the Shankly Way...bit by bit...then we dropped points at Villa made me wonder though...how would our club have differed if we won it under Evans...would we have moved on from there? how different things might have been - it'ld have bought him at least another three seasons - would we have improved or would the party boys have wanted more...it's that old chestnut about Fergie...the year they won the FA cup that saved his bacon they were close to going out in the third round until Mark Robins won it for em...Mark Robins eh - quite possibly the most important player in the scum's last 15 year history - if they'ld have lost that it'ld have been another new manager and even more upheaval and we'ld probably have won the league a few more times in the early 90s.... strange footie init...I know there ain't much of a point being made here...but maybe its just that sometimes it just goes for ya and sometimes it doesn't.... but where would that era have taken us if Roy had have won it....we played some blinding football then by the way! Chewie

quite apart from the fact that it would really annoy the heck out of Ginsoak is anybode else not quite hopeful that we actually don't get him and then can use our 6 million elsewhere? Chewie...

we could swap Ciise for Owen and have Owen, Crouch, Kuyt and Bellamy... now that'ld be more to my liking and I'ld back across all competitions for the following Owen - 20 Crouch - 15 Kuyt - 15 Bellamy - 12 that's 62 - a rise of 2 on your previous suggestion!!!! Chewie

don't disagree with any of that - obviously if the price is right we'll buy and sell straight away. Its just that the clubs of players we seem to be linked with - Marseille (Ciise), Malouda's club, Benfica (Simao), Athletico Madrid (Torres), Villa (Kewell, Bellamy) are all clubs that have less financial clout than us but who do seem to be run by owners that drive the selling price high and the buying price low. We're not yet in the financial league of Utd or Chelsea and regardless of how partisan we may be I doubt that on a worldwide scale we demand the same respect from players that makes them demand to come to us once we show a sign of interest. A few more champs league successes may help in this but we seem to buy and sell from clubs just slightly below our rung in the ladder and they have proven to be very tenacious to deal with. That's why I think we may b in for quite a protracted transfer window as we look to buy and sell.... now, from my original post you'll gather that I think 95% of the hype on here recently is simply that - hype, and that G&H have since Feb been working with Rafa on an agreed strategy that includes the academy, the stadium, the scouting system, the budget - all of the evidence seems to point towards these men having a very clear idea of what they are doing and it's my hope that it is a very clear idea that includes retaining the best players (as they have done) and replacing some squad players with better squad players (as I think they may be trying to do at the moment) as well as adding 2-3 serious quality additions to the starting eleven. I've seen little to suggest that this won't happen, but I'm sure the people who pay the cheques at Anfield will be delighted to learn that most clubs think we are struggling financially. I'm not saying this was designed but I'm also saying that I never saw a single statement at the time of the purchase that said Rafa would have 100 mil to spend or even 50 mil. The papers talked up the warchest and the papers have blown it apart before Rafa has even gone into battle. Whether by accident or design I think we'll be happier competing for signatures without everyone thinking they can jump on a gravy train that was never expressly stated to exist in the first place. For what its worth therefore I reckon we're exactly on track with where the main people at the club thought we would be and all talk of initial warchests and being broke are just exaggerations to the contrary...although they'll be happier that the perception of our transfer policy is now very different from only 2-3 months ago. Chewie should really learn how to edit!!

I agree with you there but that's why I think that we're doing an awful lot of work behind the scenes to get deals as far in place as possible before things are completed - for both selling abd buying. Clubs like Villa will be waiting for us to need to sell Kewell and Bellamy and we'll be wanting to avoid that. This is why I think this is actually an incredibly complicated business and why we haven't heard an awful lot. In fact the only thing that we have heard from Rafa apart from after the Champs league has been to affirm teh re-signings of our major players with some add-on like...'this shows the commitment to this club which should help persuade others to join...'blah blah blah. The main priority while we're all waiting for Spain to finish before our pre-season starts was always to get our own house in order. Now we have a real solid base to work from and I hope we try and maximise our position by balancing financial strength with shrewd business ... the main point I think you make is that of the real calculating business plan being to finish regularly in the top four and thus giving the owners a healthy profit without taking the plunge of spending bug to finish on top of that top four. I would share this concern but hopefully the sort of sponsorhip deals that the Mancs have been able to acquire on the back of their success will help us strive to be no.1. - but the point is well made and I think is more or less the attitude that Alan Sugar adopted when in charge of Spurs. Why risk everything on being first past the post when an each way bet every time is a sure thing? Given all of the other serious background noise - no resignation from Rafa, long term contracts for players - including two Spaniards, I'ld say that the business plan includes the sheer drivenness of Rafa to be a winner.... hope I'm guessing along the right lines though Chewie

Well it kind of works like this.... we sell Harry Kewell for say 5 mil to Aston Villa before we have a replacement lined up. Now the very simple people who currently own Malouda and Simao will probably think to themselves...ah, they need a left winger now. Let's make it easier for them by helping this transfer go smoothly. Or they might think...mmm Liverpool are left with no cover for left midfield. That means they really need to buy. Perhaps we'll raise the price a little.... or alternatively, we buy Simao for say 12 mil. All of a sudden Aston Villa are thinking. Liverpool hardly want to pay top wages for both Kewell and Simao. That means they need to sell to get a wage earner off the cash flow. Let's only offer 3 mil and perhaps the most we'll pay is 3.5 - 4. it's really quite complicated. so you don't sell what you can't buy (i.e. a left winger unless you can afford a replacement....) and you don't buy what you can't sell (i.e. a repeat of the Diouff / Diao / Cheyrou / Ciise transfers - paying large fees and ridiculous wages to players that no-one will take off your hands without you incurring a large loss) if this needs broken down any further I'll be happy to draw pictures only kidding...sorry if it wasn't more clear first time round Chewie

I can't believe how mental this place has become in just a couple of weeks...seriously...I know diddly squat about inside info on anything and I'ld say there's less than 10 that do...here's my reading of the whole situation: 1. 4 of our top players had signed long term contracts, including Pepe and Xabi. Neither of these would have signed if there was any chance that the man that brought them here was unhappy; 2. Rafa has mainly used the Spanish market - season ain't over yet and everything across Europe is on ice until these clubs are able to start buying and selling; 3. G&H have come with a business plan. Happy days. Part of that business plan, unless they are idiots, must be success on the pitch. Thankfully they've already tasted the heights of a Champions League final and I'm sure they want to get back there again; 4. All of Europe is waiting for the EPL to do an Abramovich with transfers - the new TV deal, sponsorship etc. With new owners clubs will think that we are top of the food chain just ready to pass the money down. See the first sentence in 3 above - happy days! 5. G&H have repeatedly expressed their utmost respect for Rafa and especially have alluded to his shrewd business sense.... 6. I know nothing about inside info but I do know that in life and business you don't sell what you can't buy and you don't buy what you can't sell. The latter was the big mistake of the Ged reign in 2002. If you sell before you buy you become a forced buyer and it drives the price you have to pay up because your demand is greater. If you buy before you sell you become a forced seller and it drives the price of your own players down because other clubs know you need to get rid. As soon as we buy in a forward or a left winger it will send down the price of Bellamy or Kewell etc. Other clubs know this and so do we. This makes timing very important! 7. Buy Eto, Tevez, Villa, Simao....I'm sure this is very easy once you've negotiated whether or not the player wants to actually move, what contractual implications are there, what agents are involved, what payments are made to external third parties, whether the club wants to sell this player. I'm quite surprised actually that we haven't bought more than 3 world class players already... 8. Like it or loathe it the star player in the rafalution - regardless of what top name we sign - will be Rafa. It's the way the man seems wired. He's a tactician and to him his teams succeed depending on whether or not he out-wits the opposition. It's proven very effective but it's a definite hindrance / help when compared to say a Galatico approach (delete as appropriate depending on your level of exposure to Champ Manager) 9. We've a new stadium on the way that looks amazing according to Kev, we've signed up four of our top players on long term contracts, we don't seem to be negotiating our affairs in public and have said very little whilst the press have said much, and we've a heck of a core unit of players to build a formidable team around...Reina, Carra, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Sissoko, Kuyt, Crouch before we even start to consider more fringe players such as Aurelio, Pennant, Riise, Arbeloa... we know where the needs are and so does Rafa. Let's just wait and see what happens eh before second guessing on a footie forum the financial ins and outs of a multi million pound operation....the problem with forums at this time of the year compared to pubs is that in pubs the rumours are forgotten about the next morning rather than written down in print. Strange things happen when things are written in print - people start believing it regardless of the sauce! For anyone with genuine rumours keep em coming....As for everything else the original poster got it spot on when he raised a load of questions - but that's only because that's all we have. The few that have answers are the few that matter the most and they seem pretty composed about things to me.... YNWA Chewie

when's zizou coming and that bloke from Bayern...Lizarazou...something about the 7/7/7 I heard...