kop205

Verbal agreement was made as part of the transfer that he wouldn't play.

No, I think we understood you perfectly well and it is incredibly insulting. I am more than aware myself of people who comfortably earn enough to attend the games and hold down what would be considered very middle class jobs (jobs for which they need a university education) and yet pride themselves on being 'hard cases' who still get involved in and actively seek out confrontation. It was just a ridiculous comment to make and I wouldn't even try to defend it to be honest. As for the incident itself, it is disgusting. But, as with the Alan Smith songs, if we are going to be criticised for it then let it be as part of opening up a wider deabte about what has been going on at these games. How aware are the national media of what happens every time we go to Old Trafford in terms of being attacked leaving the away end and s*** and piss being thrown (according to people who have been to a number of games there)? Unless this is really opened up, the situation will just get worse and I honestly think there will be a serious injury at one of these games soon. Their knobheads will use what went on at Anfield to justify worse attacks on us, just as our knobheads used the 'Neville factor' and various other things to justify their behaviour, and so it will continue.

I call a ceasefire on Case. I must admit, my first reaction to seeing his post was 'You cheeky f*****' but fair is fair, he's admitted many times he got it wrong last year and has at least provided good reasons why people shouldn't criticise now. Even so, balls of steel to start a thread on this!

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Please do, because you'll find that the reason that thread was so long because half the people on it DID give a s*** about Alan Smith, most of the rest weren't arsed and a few thought it was funny - one tof them being Elisha Scott, who has already said he's happy to take back what he gives out. So what the f*** exactly is your point? That we aren't perfect? Although it doesnlt suit youtr sad, bitter agenda to admit this, the vast majority of us know that and make no apologies for those amongst us who we feel take it too far. You? 'tell me when I've been racist' is your best response. Well to coin one of your later replies, 'Just because I haven;t heard it doesn't mean it doesn't happen'. Not that I have any reason to think that you are racist of course - just that you have got a f***ing cheek to come on here and try to have a go about the Smith song when there is a big, bitter, racist (and wooden) house over on your side of Stanley Park that needs putting in order first.

As I said in the big thread the other day, I donlt mind us being criticised for what we sang at Smith provided it is part of opening up a proper debate about some of the s*** that gets sung at matches. Interesting letter in the Observer the other week by someone who follows Everton away from home but is pissed off with doing so because of the sickening racism that gets aired - including a song praising the killers of Anthony Walker. Add that to 'Hou had a heart attack?', 'Hey Emile Heskey I wanna know if you'll be my slave' and the many Hillsborough and Heysel slurs that you lot have produced over the years. Then, if you still want to come on and have a go about something so comparitively insignificant as what was chanted at Smith, then feel free. You absolute f***wit.

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Big thing about that in the Observer review section on Sunday, probably the same article. Just another reason to dislike the c***.

That would be my guess. If he isn't fit enough to play tonight then surely they wouldn't have taken him as, from the sounds of things, it isnlt as though the injury has just come to light. I know that there is the morale aspect etc but it would seem daft to take him if he wasnlt going to be involved.

That bottom one looks like the kind of s**** picture that people put on their fridges because their kid did it. Only thing missing is a big smiley sun in the top right hand corner.

Same thing anyway really I suppose.

I'd always assumed he is a United fan as wel, and I think he may have got a s***load of abusive leters telling him so because in his colum a couple of years back he set the record straight and revealed why he really writes so much s**** about us... ...he is an Evertonian. Or, what he actually said, was something along the lines of Everton being 'his' Premiership side but he doesn't really follown anyone that passionately. His words.

As I've said a few times in this thread, I wasn't happy with what was sung BUT it is scanadalous to mention the taunting without a) mentioning the fact that the majority applauded him off and b) mentioning the s**** that the away end spouted all game (think it was mentioned in another article) I'd accept us being criticised for the taunting if it was done as part of opening up a full and frank debate about how posionous the atmosphere at these games has become again. I'm not saying that 'they started it' or 'we only did it 'cos of what they were singing' cos they are s**** (and possibly untrue) arguments. I do think though that maybe the time has come for the clubs to try to address some of what happens at these games, whether that be sick chanting or running the gauntlet coming out of the away end at Old Trafford. There is a conection between the two in the sense that some meatheads will always use what other fans chant as a reason to attack them and use what their own fans chant as a way of psyching themselves up

In fairness mate, there has been a bit of lecturing going on - from both sides of the debate at times. Given some of the other s**** that has gone on at these games over the years, I can fully undesrtand why there are people (like anny road) who aren't arsed either way about what happened to Smith. I can even understand (in the sense that I'm not surprised) that there are a few who took pleasure in it (even if I can't agree with them myself). At the end of the day, it isn't a massive deal and I take much greater exception to the Munich/Hillsborough brigade. Those songs strike at the very heart of things the two clubs hold dear and probably cross a line for 95% of fans these days. The Smith song was a slightly poor taste joke that I'd rather we'd not sung but we did. Though I will admit I laughed when I heard it said that Riise has a more dangerous shot than Dick Cheyney...

There is a difference between being shocked that people sang the song (I wasn't) and feeling that it was a bit unpleasant (I did). I've no wish to lecture people about it or get on a high horse, people are entitled to react in whatever way they choose. I am more than aware that Alan Smith is a snidey, dirty little t*** who it IS hard to sympathy for. What I will say though is that a lot of 'high horse' stuff has also been coming from people having a go at those who dare to say that they felt it was uncalled for, almost as if they are questioning their understanding of what it is to be a Liverpool fan. If someone feels it was uncalled for, fine. It doesn't make them any less of a Liverpool fan, I suppose we all draw a line somewhere in how far we would take our hatred of other clubs and it just so happens that for me and a few others, taunting an opposition player who has suffered a terrible injury (no matter how unpleasant their character and their club) crosses that line. And yes, I am well aware that it is a line that it is a line that has been crossed, and crossed further, many times before - by fans of both clubs. If you feel it doesn't cross a line, or if you are indifferent about it all, then fine. I know some people will feel strongly that they have good reason for not being sympathetic and that is fine by me. The only parts of the the thread that I disagree with are those that have argued that NOBODY is entitled to have sympathy.

1 I know he doesn't, I'm just not sure that playing for Man Utd automatically makes a bad injury something to laugh about. 2 We ALL know that because you never cease reminding everyone about it. 3 Why should you care what Smith did to Leeds? What is to say that Jordan wouldn't leave City if his and their circumstances came to mirror Smith's and Leeds? Smith leaving Leeds does f*** all to justify the abuse he took yesterday. 4 I know, but as you have a mate who is a pro player I would have thought it might have made you a little more sensitive in sutuations when someone suffers a potentially careet threatening injury. And as for the final comment, I actually said in my intial post 'fair enough for not pretending'. I don't want you to pretend, and I'm not going to be arrogant or sanctimonious enough to say that I don't understand why some people feel it is ok to taunt to him. What I disagreed with was you saying that you couldn't understand why some people found it distasteful. Even if you personally don't, it hardly takes a huge leap of imagination to see why some people did. Me? I can see both points of view really and wouldn't passionately defend or attack either.

How would you feel if the injury had happened to Ste Jordan in a Manchester derby and he'd been taunted about it? I assume you would be raging, so surely it isn't that hard to understand why others found it a bit distasteful in this instance. That isn't to say that you should feel that way to - you feel how you feel and fair enough for not pretending. At the same time though, donlt be too surprised that there are others who feel that the las deserevs a bit more respect than that.

Will certainly be on some channel, probably Fox sports. You'll get one of the Champions league games per week on free to air TV, SBS I think. The others will be on Fox.

'Long drive'? Has he taken up f***ing golf? And is this the same player who you have been slagging off in other threads? (Or was that an attempt at humour?). We all know that our options up front leave a lot to be desired but no point showing up? Christ, you have posted some s**** in the last few days, most of which I've ignored, but this takes the f***ing biscuit. Our striking options were just as limited during the unbeaten run, and most if us weren;t getting carried away then cos we knew we were still a work in progress. Were you as miserable and critical then? If not, then you are having a major over reastion now. Get behind them. Fowler has shown flashes of encouraging form, Xabi is top class, we have Garcia to come back in at some point and a vastly improved Kewell. Recent poor results have been down to individual errors from a previously solid back line. When those stop (which they will), we'll be back on track.

Other than Nicol, has a full back ever won it though? Just doesn't happen really, they end to go for those who pay in more eye-cathcing positions. But Finnan has been excellent - again yesterday, no danger came down his side of the pitch.

Are you kidding? It is all Case went on about for months, confidently predicting that we would NEVER win anything of note under Rafa. He eventually took his ball home and disappeared when he got sick of getting dog's abuse everytime he posted. In fairness, he reappeared before the end of the season and by the end of it was big enough to admit that he was wrong. He was the most vocal but there wil definitely have been others. Seem to remember the general mood after Birmingham away last year was pretty dark, though not many were saying Rafa should go.

Pretty much my thoughts really. The unbeaten run we went on took us all by surprise and probably raised expectations unrealistically. The recent defeats have revealed nothing that we deep down didn't know already: - that none of Crouch, Cisse and Morientes are truly up the standard required (although I know some will disagree with Crouch) - that we desperately need a finisher. - that we have no tried and tested cover for the CB positions so that people can be given a rest (which is hurthing us at the moment as individual errors creep in). - that we have barely any players in the squad capable of beating a man. We should also remember thought that: - we have a top class manager - we have two of the best centre midfielders in the world and it will inevitably take something from us when one is injured and the other a bit out of form (although I didn't think Alonso was that bad last night, and his pass to Cisse was superb). - we still have an excellent goals against record - we have a core of 8/9 excellent players at the club who would get into most squads Given all of that, where we are now in the league probably isn't too far off where we are entitled to be. The end of the season will be time for a fuller judgement.

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I know. All the original post did was ask was whether it was loud or not because he felt it didn't sound it on the TV. The poster even mentioned the fact that he couldn't be sure because you can't rea;lly tell on TV. He freely admitted that he doesn't go to aways, which is why he was asking. He was hardly pasing criticism and actually invited people to correct him if he was wrong (which some have had he was, one has said he wasn't). It certainly not 'veiled criticism', so I have no idea why we have had such a precious reaction to such innocent comments .

Maybe the fact that if she is going on Thursday then she probably doesn't have a season ticket (as they go on sale on Tuesday) and will therefore be getting them on fancards has something to do with it. ..