Mikey

I see your point and I'm not saying that some of these kids should be playing now, this arguement is getting away from the point that I'm trying to make. I think that it makes more sense for us to have Guthrie on £5K as 5th choice CM next season than Zenden on £35K, while they are not good enough yet to command a place in the team or on the bench, barring emergencies or the resting of a complete team, they will have no chance at all of becoming good enough if every possible squad place is already taken by players that are currently not good enough, and will never be good enough due to age, limitations etc. I would prefer to see Zenden and Gonzalez go to be replaced by one of Ribery/Simao etc and take a chance that for the maybe one meaningful game that they might be needed we took a chance on Guthrie or Hamill. Anyway the thread is who do we think is going, and i think Zenden is off and the best Gonzalez can hope for is a loan out. Oh yeah, and Guthrie is far more mobile than Welsh was.

If you look at United's 30 striker goals this season then its not counting Ronaldo who has played half the season as a striker.

2 mean nothing games at the end of the seasopn so we could rest 9 players for the CL, due to us being out of the running in the PL by September. I don't think Guthrie, Hobbs and Antwi will be substandard.

Thanks for that. How do you suggest they develop from outstanding young players into first team squad members then?

Where does he play?

Agreed, but what if they're players who aren't likely to come in if one of the first choices are injured? Zenden playing in the CL semi is proof of Gonzalez's lack of progress this season rather than an indictment of his own performances. He will be 5th choice CM next season and 3rd or 4th choice LM, I'd rather see Guthrie as 5th choice CM and anyone ahead of him at LM on fractions of his wages. I'm all for keeping the quality of the squad high, but for the youngsters that we've had for a couple of years now, Guthrie, Anderson, Hamill, Antwi, Hobbs etc, to progress they are gonna need the occasional game, players like Zenden staying, on massive wages, will only stand in their way. And I've heard 'if they're good enough they will get a game' loads of times but how will they if they never get into the squad in the first place? We ned a squad of what, 23 players? We've got more than that already without signing anyone new, and I'm sure you're not advocating that. We sign Simao/Ribery/Quaresma for LM, then HK, Jar and Aurelio become back up, and Gonzalez and Zenden do what?

No-one's saying sell everybody, and if Rafa doesn't have a settled first 11 then he definitelt has a settled first 8 or 9 now. If we let Dudek, Fowler, Zenden, Carson, Crouch/Bellamy(I think it will be Bellamy as well but if Gonzelez deserves a 2nd season then why doesn't Bellamy?), Gonzelez/Garcia leave we are still adequately covered before we look at bringing anyone new in apart from GK. GK - Reina, Padelli RB - Finnan, Arbeloa, Peltier CB - Arbeloa, Agger, Carra, Sami(?), Antwi, Hobbs, Paletta LB - Aurelio, JAR, Arbeloa RM - Pennant, Gerrard, Garcia(?) CM - Alonso, Momo, Gerrard, Masch, Guthrie etc LM - HK, JAR, Aurelio, Garcia/Gonzalez Striker - Kuyt, Voronin, Crouch/Bellamy, HK. Add Torres, Ribery/Simao/Quaresma and Alves to that and we're sorted.....apart from keeper obviously. I don't see the point of keeping players on £35K+ per week who aren't going to get a game, regardless of how much money we've got.

I don't think 'only 33' applies to Sami to be honest, he's as slow as a snail, and turns like the QE2 at the moment. Still a fantastic player if the balls in front of you but I disagree about him being in the 10 best CB's in the PL, and i read somewhere a while back that he will consider his future if he doesn't get regular games. I think we need younger, faster and better as cover and long term competition/replacement for Carra and Agger; I'd like to see Arbeloa play CB to see how he looks.

His loan finished this morning I believe, he can't play against us and thats the only game charlton have left.

So the general opinion is that Robbie and Dudek are off but we should keep everyone apart from them involved with the 1st team this season, in case they come good or find some form next season? Or in Sami's case turn the clock back 3 years. Who wouldn't be worried next season if Agger or Carra got injured and Sami had to play against Arsenal away? I would like to see him retire and become a coach with us, possibly keep his registration live to help the kids develop. Who would be happy going into next seasons CL semi-finals with Zenden playing LM, and Gonzalez on the bench again? Please don't let his great penalty cloud how he actualy played over the two legs. The whole point of getting money into the club is to improve upon things as they are. Put the money in place to build the new stadium, make lots of money available to Rafa to buy better players than we have. For me leaving will be, Robbie, Dudek, Carson, Zenden, Gonzo/Garcia, Bellamy/Crouch, Pongolle gone, Le Tallec and Cisse to join him, At least. Cue the you're mad if you think Garcia is leaving, please tell me where he's going to play?

He's making it perfectly clear that he isn't asking for a move and is therefore entitled to a severance payment!

I actually agree, and the key for me is going to be Aurelio, if he recovers sufficiently to play 30 odd games a year then i think we could see a clear out of the LH side, as he's good at both LB and LM. Zenden is a goner I'd imagine, HK is going to get next season after persisting with him this season, if Aurelio is fit then its JAR, Aurelio, HK, Insua, Leto and 1 other for me. And thats not allowing for Arbeloa and Garcia who can play on the left as well. I don't see that one being Gonzalez.

So in your opinion we don't need anyone new for the LM/LW position to challenge for the league next season? Garcia, HK, Leto, JAR, Gonzo will provide enough down the left to improve on the last 3 years? Largest priority for me is a new LW, someone to play against 90% of the teams in the PL home and away and give us that something we lack in inventiveness and ball carrying. Possibly Simao, Quaresma, Ribery etc. In my opinion, Pennant is better than all of our left sided options with the possible exception of HK if he returns to full fitness, and he's talked about as not being good enough to be 1st choice for the right!

If next season we push for the title, can we afford to give him another year? I would imagine that LW is the top of Rafa's list, with possibly more than 1 arriving we are so short there unless we sign a lb and push JAR forward more often. We are going to sign at least 2 major players this summer, so get used to the idea that some players that possibly will improve given more time, will not be given that chance due to the increased pressure to perform better over the season. There is no point saying 'sign big names' then whining when some of your favourites get sold to make room for them. Zenden picked for both legs of the CL semi = Gooodbye Gonzo for me. Either sold or loaned out.

What a side they were, did Maldini play?

This issue that nobody's raised about reina being better than Dida, have you read the 'Can we beat Milan again' thread? Anyone that knows their @rse from their elbow knows that we have got a huge advantage in goalkeeper over Milan, many of us have been highlighting this since the final line-up was decided mate.

Agree totally, one of the worst 'top' keepers I've ever seen, Shoot from everywhere, every corner and freekick put under the bar to start with and destroy his already fragile confidence. No way will Ambrosini, Gattuso, Pirlo, kaka and Seedorf be able to outwork Gerrard, Masch, Alonso,Sissoko, Pennant, Zenden, Gonzalez over 90 minutes, no way. I'd probably start with SG,JM, XA, BZ PC, DK up front and after 60 minutes when Milan are starting to look tired, take Crouchie off for Bellamy, Zenden for Pennant, and see where we go from there. Sissoko is an option here because his destroying game ala barca away is perfect for the final. I think we honestly have more 'possibilities' than they do, their side is cast in stone.

AC milan beat United 3-0, all 3 goals came via massive mistakes by the United defence, mistakes we will not make. Kaka is genuine world class, Inzaghi and Gilardinho(sp?) aren't. Seedorf and Pirlo are good players the wrong side of 30, Ambrosini is steady, Gattuso is a bully and a red card walking. Nesta is past his best but still a decent defender, Maldini is quality but slow as cr@p at both running and turning, neither are great in the air or physically strong. Oddo is a steady RB and Khaladse(sp?) is a good LB. Dida is the worse keeper in the last 8 and is a disaster waiting to happen. Their bench is significantly weaker than ours. They are a good side, no more no less. We have beaten what would be considered to be the two best sides in Europe to get to Athens, we have to find a way to nulify Kaka, the same way Milan did to Placcy and Rooney, and I'm sure Rafa will do it. We have to make them work for every minute of the game, Gerrard, Mascherano, Kuyt, Pennant will be vital to this. We are gonna do this, it will be tight and full of tension but we are gonna do it!

Have you ever met him? I have and he was a top bloke, and you'd tell him he couldn't have one would you?

Got to admit that he played a blinder, far better defensively than I've seen him for a long time - if ever. If he could repeat that level of performance and concentration, and Aurelio can return to his impression of full fitness then the LB position is no longer a priority.

According to the morning papers he was Chelsea's 2nd best player after Terry and gets between a 7 and 8 as well??????? Watched the game in our bar with loads of different teams supporters, sat by a 70 year old Manc, and when he came to take his penalty he said "I thought he'd gone off in the 2nd half", and he was serious as well. F****** GASH.

1 - Reina, outstanding, solid as a rock and penalty king. 2 - Finnan, best RB in the PL, did he make a mistake? 3 - Riise, possibly his best game for us that I've ever seen. 4 - Carra, simply Carra, what a player. 5 - Agger, proper manned up tonight and scored a cracker. 6 - Mascherano, couldn't get a game for West Ham??????? world class! 7 - Pennant, his best game for us by a mile, murdered Cole who I'm actually a big fan of. 8 - Gerrard, Captain! 9 - Crouch, tried hard and kept Essien busy. Essien was better than Terry tonight. 10 - Kuyt, worked his goolies off, scored a perfectly good goal and ran all night. 11 - Zenden, tried hard, never hid, great penalty. 1 - Pennant - because he played so much better than we all thought he could against a proper fullback. 2 - Carra - giant of a man, immense character, strength of will. 3 - Mascherano - can you be a F***ing steal at £10M? Headache due to stress, imensely proud, feeling humble to be so priveleged to be a lifelong supporter, close to tears now. Goodnight.

Thats correct, but out of those 4 'goal scorers' 3 of them have defensive duties as well and if they return 10 goals a season it would be considered a fair return for them. that leaves a massive goal scoring weight on the 1 out and out striker. Say we play any three out of Gerrard, Simao, Tevez, Pennant, Gonzalez, Garcia, Voronin, A.N.Other behind Crouch/Kuyt next season, how many goals do you see them contributing over the season? And along with the 20 from the main striker do you see that being enough? I don't.

So bearing in mind this is a Simao thread, we sign Tevez, sell Bellamy and rely upon Tevez & Kuyt/Crouch to get us goals next season? For £10M I think Simao is a good signing, not the very top level in his psoition but certainly just under it. He would certainly add goals to our side, and become 1st choice freekick taker, him and Aurelio would have everything covered between them. Don't want Tevez, don't want to play 4-5-1 or any other way you want to dress up 1 striker.

Well said Huyton, you don't hear that much do you? Chelsea's team for tomorrow is set in stone now, Cole/Terry/Essien/Ferr???(sp?), Malelele/ Mikel/ Lampard/SWP, Drogba/Shev. Little real width apart from the fullbacks and SWP, they will play compact and look to lump balls into our box all game from anywhere on the pitch and try to get the 2nd ball. I can very easily see Rafa going 3-5-2, (or however you want to show it 3-4-1-2 etc) as an attacking measure. Carra/Sami/Agger at the back, dominate them in the middle with SG, Xabi/Momo and Masch, get at them wide with Pennant and JAR(for his goal threat and added defensive capabilities), and play Crouch & Kuyt up front and swap them after 60 mins for Bellamy and fowler if we still need a goal. We are so going to do this!