beejay

How about Voronin has gone http://www.lfconline.com/feat/ed12/dynamo_moscow_complete_18m_signing_of_liverpool_flop_voronin_481332/index.shtml

No, Alonso plays for Real Madrid having been bought by Rafa Benitez for £10.5m and sold for £30m + £5m add-ons. Baines is sh*t FFS. Oh and remind me how many games those world beaters Arteta & Jagielka have played this season? Makes Aurelio's record look like Maldini

The purpose of this debate (clogging up the Transfer Thread news) is lost on me. Rafa has made mistakes in the transfer market, big deal who hasn't? But add up the value of the squad now from the one he inherited and you will find he has spent very wisely. When he gets it wrong, by & large we have not lost vast sums. When he gets it right, we have profited sometimes spectacularly eg Torres, Alonso, Reina, Mascherano, Agger etc

Or Arteta better than say Alonso or Mascherano? Baines better than Aurelio? That guy must be Prentice tring to pick the Everpool team

I thought Babel was pretty good in his 1st season and he has scored many crucial goals for us plus he made the difference between us losing the Champions League quarter final v Arsenal. We are crying out for pace & width and he is one of the few in our squad who can frighten the life out of defenders. When he does play, teams double up against him and he is strong enough to hold the ball up under that pressure. Under a different manager he could be a top player in my opinion. To just say he is sh*t is utter garbage.

There's 3 ways of taking that Barrett article : 1. At face value - ie we are holding back our money for some big deals in the summer 2. Reading between the lines - the owners are using the money to pay off debt and 3. Club insider - the real reason is they think that Rafa can't be trusted to spend the money and the club are waiting until the end of the season to review the manager's position as well as transfer policy I think it's a bit of all three, to be honest. The banks won't allow them to spend big because they have to carry on reducing debt and the board are keeping their options open in case we keep on regressing on the pitch.

We are horrible to watch, there is no passion or spirit or team play we are an embarrassment. And Rafa is becoming more negative with each passing game. We treated Reading like a Champions League away game at Real Madrid FFS. If ever there was a game to play Babel, this was it but no, instead we play Aurelio so he can babysit Insua against their world class winger. Something has to give, this is unacceptable we are so bad collectively & individually. So f*cked off with that, probably 8 out of 11 should be ashamed to wear the red shirt after that, at least f******g try you bunch of sh*thouses.

They might be saying the same about Dossena. Maxi was terrific against us not that long ago, like him as a player and it would suit both clubs to have loan deals with permanent transfers in the summer if all goes well. Hope this happens

Despite the car crash of a season I am still backing Rafa. I actually think that there are other managers out there who could get more out of this squad at this precise moment but taking a longer term view, he has shown he is capable of producing a winning side who can compete at any level and given more time I strongly believe he can add to our trophy haul. He does need to learn from the mistakes since the end of last season though and to clear out the dead wood, put more trust in the best of the younger players etc. The other reason for keeping Rafa is because I truly fear we might go into meltdown if the owners sack him and bring in someone who doesn't work out. I don't trust their judgement on anything and there is every chance they would make a dumb choice, a flavour-of-the-month guy to boost their popularity and in the process, lose the decent set of core players Rafa has put together. Rafa has also managed to keep going in spite of unbelievable turmoil behind the scenes and has finally achieved a bit of stability with Purslow's assistance. The chances of anyone of any similar calibre putting up with all that sh*t are slim. Finally, we must not lose sight of the real villains here. If we are to campaign for booting anyone out we have to start with the Yank Liars.

Simon Kjaer. Forget the others.

You're right, I was only using Torres as an example because he is the most saleable asset. That's the problem with trying to explain a point on the internet, people take one aspect and then you find yourself defending a point you weren't trying to make! Anyway, my original post was simply trying to highlight that our debt is the main driving force behind the club at the moment and Rafa's statements yesterday have confirmed this. I have some knowledge of RBS and their policies post-credit crunch and there is no question in my mind that the debt has a long way to fall before we can refinance with them, in fact I have been told that we are non-core business and unless we can get back to overdraft status rather than being perceived as a short-term high-risk loan, we will have to find new bankers. That said, we have been given a business plan to work to and if we reduce the debt as required we will secure longer term financing that will provide us with stability and allow us to move forward with the next phase which is the stadium construction on a ring-fenced loan set against future cashflows. Until then, the club is motivated purely by the short term expediency of cutting debt with all other objectives on and off the pitch a secondary concern. We will have to make sacrifices therefore unless we can find some fresh investment from somewhere. Let's see if there are any guests receiving the red carpet treatment off Hicks & Gillett tomorrow.

You are the one in the time warp. Try googling "RBS" and see what that throws up. Under the current finance deal we are in the "non-core" division and the remit is to get out of that business. RBS are happy to be our primary bankers but not at anything like the current borrowings. New or retained revenue streams are nowhere near enough to reduce the debt sufficiently for RBS (or any other mainstream bank) to extend our terms. Why do you think they have been touting for investors to take 25% or more? The saudis let the cat out of the bag saying that although they were interested, they didn't want their investment to just go to pay off the debt which is where G&H intended it to go.

Leo, that's still missing the point. Put yourself in their shoes - of course they don't want to sell assets (eg Torres) or to jeopardise our chances of champions league money. But they MUST raise the money from somewhere in the next 8-9 months to reduce the debt. They have done this once already - in the summer they had to find £60m to pay off some of the debt to give them breathing space on an extension to their loan. Alonso etc plus some of their own money did the trick but now they face an even bigger call. Selling 25% or a bit more for about £100m is their preferred option but unless they find a taker they have to look elsewhere for the cash. Right at the back of their list of options is a sale for a knock-down price. Why would they want to do that when there is a perfectly acceptable alternative? Secure the finance on a 3 year package; much lower interest charges; means they can consolidate.

Businesses face this dilemma all the time. If you have to sell a profitable asset in order to keep the rest of the business properly financed then so be it. The Directors will think they can then plan to replace the lost income through other revenue streams or by cost-cutting.

It's a much better option for them than selling at the bottom of the market and walking away with bugger all. The greatest threat to their prospects of securing their end price has nothing to do with what happens on the pitch at the moment. They have to reduce the debt, full stop. Once they have the longer term finance in place they can plan ahead but until then the likes of Torres (& Benitez) are expendable.

That pre-supposes there are investors prepared to pay their price. They won't sell the club unless they make their profit and if no-one will offer that, they have a perfectly good alternative - sell Torres. In one fell swoop they raise the cash to reduce the debt, keep the bank happy and cling on to the club. As an added bonus, Rafa would probably walk saving them the money to get rid of him and they can install a new manager who will do their bidding. Having slashed the interest charges on the debt they can afford to be out of the champions league for a couple of years and they can then hope to sell the club at some point in the future when the market is back in full swing and values have risen, particularly if the pay-to-view on their own TV deal eventually comes in. As a business model it works perfectly well and is a far better option for them than selling now at a cut-down price. Their number one priority is to secure a longer-term refinancing package and to achieve that, they know they have to reduce the debt by another £100m or so in the next 8 or 9 months.

RBS are demanding that the debt is reduced, substantially. The owners sent their brokers out to raise the funds last March but to no avail so they had to scramble the money together for the first repayment in July and that meant using some of the Alonso etc cash. They are trying again now with this much-publicised campaign seeking £100m for a 25% share but if that fails then they will be forced to either inject more of their own money or raise the cash from sales. Gillett has sold the Habs so presumably has some resources but it doesn't look like Hicks is in the same position. The way he is thrashing around trying to salvage a stake in his baseball team doesn't bode well. Come what may, they have to reduce the debt down to a level acceptable to RBS and it's looking more likely by the day that the funds will have to be generated by the club rather than through investment from those two or a 3rd party. You never know, maybe some mega-rich arab will be a guest of the 2 b*****s on Sunday and we can dream again of a saviour but you get the feeling that all those ships have sailed and we are up sh*t creek instead.

That was the first game I've attended all season because of a broken ankle and the difference from last season was strikingly apparent. We are playing with so much fear, you can touch the nervous tension out there and the belief, the expectation that we will win because we are the better, more dominant side has completely gone. We are also not playing as a unit, the teamwork is not there and we also seem to be lacking in energy and general fitness. Most of our players were dead on their feet at the end although this was hardly a high tempo game. N'gog, Lucas & Insua look like they really struggle to get through the full 90 mins and their performances drop off alarmingly towards the end while Gerrard was a passenger for much of the 2nd half. Some of the senior players were the worst on the pitch and that can't help the confidence of the others. Kuyt was truly awful, Skretl a comedy of errors and Gerrard is so palpably unfit and off the pace that it further erodes the belief of the team to see your inspirational leader so wounded and missing in action. The injuries are hurting us badly but that doesn't explain why the likes of Kuyt, Skretl, Carragher - key players from the successful side last year - are so poor. Lucky for us that Man City were abject as well. Rafa has a massive task on his hands to turn this around, I wouldn't fancy us against Debrecen at the moment let alone f#### Everton on Sunday. For some reason my f****** ankle is playing up again now

Fiorentina beat Debrecen 4-3 and 5-2. We won 1-0 so if we beat Debrecen by more than 3 goals and Lyon get a draw, we can qualify with a 2-0 in the last game. Simples

OK Shawcross : £9m Kjaer : £11m : his buy-out clause Johnson : £2m : contract expires in summer, tribunal Toure : £18m : that's the price being quoted in the press Silva : £25m : Valencia are seriously broke Cole : £10m : So are West Ham

We have a winner. In Rafa's chat with Tomkins he accepted that we are too slight and lacking balance. That would all change with some Championship Manager transfers to produce this 25 man squad for a net outlay of £20m (OK I'm bored and it's Friday afternoon) : Reina, Cavalieri, Gulacsi ; Johnson (Glenn), Kelly, Shawcross, Carragher, Agger, Kjaer, Insua, Aurelio ; Kuyt, Babel, Benayoun, Johnson (Adam), Lucas, Gerrard, Toure, Aquilani, Silva ; Torres, Cole, Ngog, Pacheco, Nemeth. Sell/discard : Degen, Kyrgiakos, Skretl, Dossena, Mascherano, Riera, Voronin = £56m Buy/exchange : Shawcross, Kjaer, Johnson (A), Toure (Yaya), Silva, Cole = £75m Some big lads in there who genuinely attack the ball in the air, mainly young players with ambition, vastly improves our home-grown contingent for years to come, most if not all are available at the right price - job's a good 'un. Simon Kjaer in particular is an awesome player, a beast and an athlete, Shawcross is versatile, quick, strong & brave, Toure would be the man to replace Masch and is far more physically imposing, Adam Johnson's contract runs out in the summer and is a traditional, tricky winger, Silva is top, top class and a hard little mother too, Cole is improving and adds a different dimension. Go Rafa

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Liver...icle220151.html The Mirror are running the story as well

Rafa has an excellent transfer record, in my opinion, but his stop gap signings of cheap journeymen pros has been pretty disastrous. Pellegrino, Nunez, Itanje, Voronin, Degen, Kyrgiakos. Could add Zenden as well but at least he had played at a senior level & in the Premiership so made a half decent contribution. When we recover from the mess we are in at the moment I hope to God that Rafa learns from a few of his mistakes and bringing in these type of players is one of his biggest.

Voronin & the Greek are never ever Liverpool players, not in a million ***** years. None of the youth players could possibly be as bad as them and they would at least try. What the f*** was the Greek doing throwing himself on the floor to allow them a clear run at goal? International footballer my f**** a***. Worse than Piechnik or Kvarme, joke of a defender

More money lost from the January transfer budget.