schmuckdonald

Defending is so 2008.

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This is for my benefit then? Or the greater good, perhaps. Either can play either position . Lucas was better. Hell, I'd even say Lucas was one of our better players but give him a run of games there and people will get frustrated. I didn't see anything in Gerrard as the lone defensive midfielder that has changed my opinion (which has been long standing) that he shouldn't play there. Nor was I being serious about the re-run. I could have asked for examples and rationale to support the idea that this is a good way to play going forward but I didn't because we talk in generalities on here. Or I thought so, anyway.

Disappointing.

If it makes you feel better, I'm watching it on repeat on LFCtv and in the two minutes I've watched Gerrard has punted it away to no one twice and Lucas has lost the ball near the Stoke box. 33-35 minutes. Will rewind and give seconds if you fancy, like.

I was watching it too closely before. If you want an example: every time Lucas was near their box and didn't know what to do. I don't think you can call it pragmatic when you play a player in the most defensive midfield position for his attacking attributes.

I don't think it does. Considering most teams do it, I think you can find the balance. You can split the defence and tell one to drop and rotate. You don't have to play one deep to split the centre backs. Yeah, Gerrard is much more capable of that but there's still question marks over his ability to reign it in when he needs to. There's also the fact that if you want to be a team that plays it direct and quickly from back-to-front then you need to be higher up the pitch and press a lot more, rather than drop when you lose the ball as your asking players to cover too much space and you're asking to be caught out. It's like we're trying to have the best of all worlds here. I'm one of Lucas' biggest fans and I think he *can* do that job but to say he's no more deficient than Allen or Henderson going forward simply isn't true.

I wasn't watching it strictly enough to be able to give you a list of examples I'm afraid, Vic. That being said: every time Gerrard balloons it out of play or plays a ball that gets the play forward but leaves a player isolated as there's no one near him. It is a dynamic position and there's definitely good qualities in Gerrard you can harness there but I think it exposes him too much. I also don't see why he can't do those good things with Lucas alongside him, really. He did keep playing deeper but he wasn't the consistent deeper outlet who had to move the ball from the defence. He had Lucas alongside him, which helps defensively and helps give options to move the ball that isn't 50-60 yards away, which is all he sees sometimes. I just think the good parts of Gerrard you want to get in that position (being able to be direct and get the ball from back to front quickly) while having him as the sole defensive midfielder and the other two told to push out is dangerous as he will lose it sometimes and as I said before, it leaves us susceptible to teams that attack directly and quickly as we've pushed out but lost it and can be got at.

You do? Ok then, like you said: we have Henderson. He's got the ability to get goals from a central position and has said himself he's working on improving it. Don't see teams finding it easy to control Suarez and Sturridge any time soon, plus we have Sterling who is starting to look like he's actually figured it out and Coutinho who still needs to find his proper form. You probably want better options in attacking midfield but I don't think you typically expect that much from the deeper players. Having a stronger third option in Borini or Aspas figuring it out or one of the younger lads coming good is probably more important. I don't think that's how you control games, either.

When Sturridge came on and Henderson went left. Instead of one sitting and two pushing, two sat and we went to 4-2-3-1 with Suarez behind Sturridge. We actually moved the ball well and weren't getting overrun in the middle, they had to lump it into the box constantly. It was their only avenue. Their third comes from when Lucas and Gerrard both go for the same ball and neither get to it, aside from that we looked a lot better when we looked like the game might be starting to get away from us again. Gerrard's deficiencies is that he isn't patient and he doesn't anticipate as well as Lucas. Gerrard sees the big ball and will try and play it, even if it means there's a greater chance we just lose the ball. This combined with the fact that we have two midfielders pushing on and two wingers means we can end up losing the ball and being vulnerable when the opposition attack directly. Typically, players who play as that pivot want to move the ball sensibly and be able to play a good ball forward that plays the overall percentages. For me, anyway. Gerrard defensively is typically a bit of a mess as well, unless it's last ditch like I said. Lucas's deficiencies are that he's a defensive midfielder. Has been for years. Now telling him to push forward and help create and push into the box is a bit mad. Think that's pretty obvious.

Don't think I ever suggested he wasn't. I'm not saying the players picked their own positions. By "out of position" I meant he wasn't in his natural position. We look better going forward and more stable at the back when we have Lucas and Gerrard as a partnership with Henderson further forward. We always have, not just in this one match. I'm not ignoring the challenges of three men in midfield, I'm saying that playing two players in positions that highlights their deficiencies is daft that was demonstrated by Gerrard beng a mess who kept punting the ball forward and jogging about. Didn't help control the game and definitely didn't control the space in front of the defence, the two features you expect of a player in that position. I can understand you want his height defensively and when it came to last ditch stuff and dropping deeper to help Toure and Skrtel from crosses he did well but that was about all he did well until we changed the shape. Lucas, meanwhile, ended up being one of our furthest players forward at times. That is mad.

Not to mention his best, most consistent, season was under Steve Clarke where we play man-marking. He's a confidence player. Not what you want in a centre back.

He wasn't in his position. He was shunted forward so to put Gerrard as the pivot and do this 1-2 b******s that always looks a mess. He was basically given the Joe Allen job. Given Gerrard's comments, Rodgers obviously wants Gerrard to play that position. I think I must have been watching a different game to people if he was meant to have had a good game yesterday. He got better when he had Lucas alongside him to do the work but when he was the pivot he played stupid balls and didn't do anything you'd want someone in that position to do.

Sturridge for Coutinho and play Lucas and Gerrard as a partnership. Please for the love of God don't make Gerrard by the pivot again. First choice defence is: Johnson Toure Sakho Flanagan. Mad.

Sterling, Suarez and Sturridge (in a cameo) all did really well. Henderson full of running but most of it was aimless and struggled to control the game. Lucas did ok, I thought, considering he was completely out of position for a lot of the game to accommodate Gerrard, who was bloody terrible for large swathes of the match. Couple of decent passes aside.

Hardly lacking for goals, though.

They're a different team. It's not like you have to prepare for a proper Wimbledoning anymore.

You know Stoke changed managers, right?

Eesh. No. Eesh.

Aye, same here. That move was an odd one.

Don't understand why Morata or Madrid would go for us or Arsenal, really. Won't get much football. Might as well stay there and fight for his place.

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Hahahaha. I didn't want to say that one. It's just mean.

Adam, Carroll, Shelvey, Enrique. Not a bad thing.

It was you not so long ago. Must be a Rob thing.