Rafa the Insurance Man

[Molby]

first the disclaimers

 

1 I love Rafa, a bit like I love my dog: Florence is the dog for me, no doubt but she keeps doing the same annoying things all the time. Still love her 'though

 

2 No disrespect intended with the moniker, 'Insurance Man' is something I remember Germany fans used for Berti Vogts

 

now about Babel and Kuyt - for a long time I've been wondering why we dont put Babel on the right and Kuyt up front. Actually I think I know and it's because Rafa is pre-occupied with covering all the bases. So lets take Fulham as an example: Degen playing, may be vulnerable due to lack of match practice and he likes to overlap so lets put Dirk there to help him defend. Same if Johnson is playing instead. So we end up with Kuyt at RM in a 4-4-2 where on average he's been at best......average, and f***ing Voronin up front

 

Meantime we are denied the genuine attacking threat that Babel provides on the right and where he's been pretty decent every time for us this season

 

AND, Torres, injured and desperately in need of a willing workhorse who can also play up front pretty well, has to rely on Voronin

 

This has happened a few times now in various guises - the reasons are stated above. I understand the logic but I knew at the time it wouldn't work and it's now been proved time and time again

 

if we had the money, if Xabi had stayed, if Rafa had a level playing field we could well have got away with these tactical mistakes but as it stands we can't afford to ever make a mistake or have any bad luck - and we're having the worst luck of course, but this Babel Kuyt thing has cost us really dear

 

 

last night he looked like he had to jink inside every time and run in to a crowd of players, which he did

 

great goal but it doesn't change anything in terms of the tactical outlook

 

would love to know if anyone can think of any other reason why Rafa has persisted in setting up his teams like this

does anyone have any other theory?

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

would love to know if anyone can think of any other reason why Rafa has persisted in setting up his teams like this

does anyone have any other theory?

 

he might not think Babel's good enough.

[jimbolala]

stick babel on the right, carra at right back, kuyt up front...let kuyt and babel inter change, keep voronoininnin away

[Michael]

Florence is the dog for me, no doubt but she keeps doing the same annoying things all the time. Still love her 'though

 

 

Well I hope she rolls over when Lyon visit.

[Knox_Harrington]

first the disclaimers

 

1 I love Rafa, a bit like I love my dog: Florence is the dog for me, no doubt but she keeps doing the same annoying things all the time. Still love her 'though

 

2 No disrespect intended with the moniker, 'Insurance Man' is something I remember Germany fans used for Berti Vogts

 

now about Babel and Kuyt - for a long time I've been wondering why we dont put Babel on the right and Kuyt up front. Actually I think I know and it's because Rafa is pre-occupied with covering all the bases. So lets take Fulham as an example: Degen playing, may be vulnerable due to lack of match practice and he likes to overlap so lets put Dirk there to help him defend. Same if Johnson is playing instead. So we end up with Kuyt at RM in a 4-4-2 where on average he's been at best......average, and f***ing Voronin up front

 

Meantime we are denied the genuine attacking threat that Babel provides on the right and where he's been pretty decent every time for us this season

 

AND, Torres, injured and desperately in need of a willing workhorse who can also play up front pretty well, has to rely on Voronin

 

This has happened a few times now in various guises - the reasons are stated above. I understand the logic but I knew at the time it wouldn't work and it's now been proved time and time again

 

if we had the money, if Xabi had stayed, if Rafa had a level playing field we could well have got away with these tactical mistakes but as it stands we can't afford to ever make a mistake or have any bad luck - and we're having the worst luck of course, but this Babel Kuyt thing has cost us really dear

last night he looked like he had to jink inside every time and run in to a crowd of players, which he did

 

great goal but it doesn't change anything in terms of the tactical outlook

 

would love to know if anyone can think of any other reason why Rafa has persisted in setting up his teams like this

does anyone have any other theory?

Take your pick:

 

Kuyt was largely excellent at right mid last season and is the best defensive forward in the world. Last night was 4231, not 442. So was Fulham. Voronin plays in a line with Kuyt and Yossi. Babel's attacking contribution isn't strong enough to take the chance of playing him and his highest level in a Liverpool shirt hasn't at any time been higher than Dirk's higher level. If it was Ronaldo vs Dirk then I can see the argument. But it isn't. It's a lad who hasn't shown what's required. For whatever reason. Babel's also a better sub than Voronin and Babel was going to be required to come on up top against Fulham as Torres was only ever getting sixty.

 

Having said all that I'd start Babel against Birmingham ahead of Dirk.

[Molby]

he might not think Babel's good enough.

 

 

well then let me correct him - having been at every PL game this season I can report that given the personnel available he is far and away our best option on the right unless Benny plays there, which he often can't as he is needed on the left

[Kvarme Ate My Food]

well then let me correct him - having been at every PL game this season I can report that given the personnel available he is far and away our best option on the right unless Benny plays there, which he often can't as he is needed on the left

 

Rafa goes the match too.

[Molby]

Take your pick:

 

Kuyt was largely excellent at right mid last season and is the best defensive forward in the world. Last night was 4231, not 442. So was Fulham. Voronin plays in a line with Kuyt and Yossi. Babel's attacking contribution isn't strong enough to take the chance of playing him and his highest level in a Liverpool shirt hasn't at any time been higher than Dirk's higher level. If it was Ronaldo vs Dirk then I can see the argument. But it isn't. It's a lad who hasn't shown what's required. For whatever reason. Babel's also a better sub than Voronin and Babel was going to be required to come on up top against Fulham as Torres was only ever getting sixty.

 

Having said all that I'd start Babel against Birmingham ahead of Dirk.

 

 

take your pick? the fact that Voronin is slightly deeper than Kuyt doesn't suddenly change the formation

we used to play 4-4-2 with Dalglish and then Beardsley slightly deeper

 

also last season we had Xabi - as predicted the effects of losing him are showing up all over the place

 

and even if the idea is to play anything other than 4-4-2 with Voronin behind Torres then a slight tweak of formation and hey presto! out goes costly and ineffective insurance (the huge cost of playing Voronin, blunting the right side etc etc) and in comes a set of players playing in their best positions

Edited November 5, 2009 by Molby

[Molby]

Rafa goes the match too.

 

 

he sits too low

[Knox_Harrington]

take your pick? the fact that Voronin is slightly deeper than Kuyt doesn't suddenly change the formation

we used to play 4-4-2 with Dalglish and then Beardsley slightly deeper

 

also last season we had Xabi - as predicted the effects of losing him are showing up all over the place

 

and even if the idea is to play anything other than 4-4-2 with Voronin behind Torres then a slight tweak of formation and hey presto! out goes costly and ineffective insurance (the huge cost of playing Voronin, blunting the right side etc etc) and in comes a set of players playing in their best positions

With Beardsley at least it wasn't a 442, we just used to say it was. As ever, the notation is rubbish. Kuyt looked the best non-Ronaldo player in the division on the right hand side of a 4231 last season. He's off form currently, mostly through being tired.

 

I think I agree with you around the houses. Kuyt is the safer pair of hands. I just don't see it as a glaring mistake not to pick Babel. Because he's been rubbish and is utterly brainless. He was also needed to lead the line against Fulham for the last thirty. Not picking Babel and picking Voronin is one of them - don't want to do either and can't really slaughter the man who makes that choice. Devil and deep blue sea. Nowhere near as clear cut as you make it sound.

[johngibo YPC]

I'd say we played 4-4-2 at Fulham

I don't like Kuyt wide in a 4-4-2. I don't think he suits it

In fact i don't like 4-4-2 in general. Its a redundant formation

[Knox_Harrington]

I'd say we played 4-4-2 at Fulham

I don't like Kuyt wide in a 4-4-2. I don't think he suits it

In fact i don't like 4-4-2 in general. Its a redundant formation

I think when you push very high (as we did when we were in charge against Fulham) 4231 almost becomes 442 again. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and need a return to alcohol and a good pub session to really work through it.

[Molby]

With Beardsley at least it wasn't a 442, we just used to say it was. As ever, the notation is rubbish. Kuyt looked the best non-Ronaldo player in the division on the right hand side of a 4231 last season. He's off form currently, mostly through being tired.

 

I think I agree with you around the houses. Kuyt is the safer pair of hands. I just don't see it as a glaring mistake not to pick Babel. Because he's been rubbish and is utterly brainless. He was also needed to lead the line against Fulham for the last thirty. Not picking Babel and picking Voronin is one of them - don't want to do either and can't really slaughter the man who makes that choice. Devil and deep blue sea. Nowhere near as clear cut as you make it sound.

 

 

I say it is that clear cut

 

I saw the dangers lurking everywhere, now everyone can see them

 

what you're suffering from is fear of freedom - "if Rafa is not all-seeing and all-powerful then who's gonna tell me what to do and what will happen to our beloved club - are people really able to question his judgement? will I fall off the world if I have nothing to cling to?"

 

 

 

so my advice is as follows:

 

1 cheer up, something will turn up, it always does...just believe

 

2 it's no disgrace to Rafa that I read the game better than him sometimes, I can read it better than anyone, I'ts just a certain experence of how situations pan out

 

ps, no slaughter intended - we went to war for him (and his office) and will do so again

[Molby]

I think when you push very high (as we did when we were in charge against Fulham) 4231 almost becomes 442 again. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and need a return to alcohol and a good pub session to really work through it.

 

 

see you Friday at 10pm then

 

I've got a spare if anyone wants her

[johngibo YPC]

I think when you push very high (as we did when we were in charge against Fulham) 4231 almost becomes 442 again. I've been thinking about this a lot recently and need a return to alcohol and a good pub session to really work through it.

 

Surely it would become a 4-2-4?

Or at least a 4-2-2-2 (Ah i guess you mean this. if one of the top 2 drops that is a sort of 4-2-3-1

 

I'm reluctant to play the 'iwasthere' card but it looked a 4-4-2 on the day. 3 lines with very little happening between them. It was horrible. Horrible to look at. And out of date. Its the Radio City Tower of formations

[Chili Palmer]

How many times has Babel played on the right for us? I can remeber only a couple of sub appearances there.

[fred milne]

I don't like Kuyt wide in a 4-4-2. I don't think he suits it

Presumably, we are saying its 4-2-3-1 when Gerrard plays off Torres but 4-4-2 when Kuyt or Voronin (or last year Keane) plays off Torres.

 

For my money, if Kuyt looks better in a 4-2-3-1 its not because his position or role is any different than in a 4-4-2 but because in Gerrard we have one of the world's best pulling the strings and not Voronin/Keane.

[Knox_Harrington]

I say it is that clear cut

 

I saw the dangers lurking everywhere, now everyone can see them

 

what you're suffering from is fear of freedom - "if Rafa is not all-seeing and all-powerful then who's gonna tell me what to do and what will happen to our beloved club - are people really able to question his judgement? will I fall off the world if I have nothing to cling to?"

so my advice is as follows:

 

1 cheer up, something will turn up, it always does...just believe

 

2 it's no disgrace to Rafa that I read the game better than him sometimes, I can read it better than anyone, I'ts just a certain experence of how situations pan out

 

ps, no slaughter intended - we went to war for him (and his office) and will do so again

Absolutely no fear of freedom here - Rafa gets things wrong. I question his judgement often, G. This one isn't one that's that clearcut as far as I can see and you are a long way from convincing me that it is so.

[fred milne]

How many times has Babel played on the right for us? I can remeber only a couple of sub appearances there.

Someone was saying the other day that in over 2 years at the club he has never started a game on the right. I haven't checked whether or not that is true but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

[Molby]

Absolutely no fear of freedom here - Rafa gets things wrong. I question his judgement often, G. This one isn't one that's that clearcut as far as I can see and you are a long way from convincing me that it is so.

 

 

show up at Korova and I'll bring the finger puppets - or shout loudly if that doesn't work

[johngibo YPC]

Presumably, we are saying its 4-2-3-1 when Gerrard plays off Torres but 4-4-2 when Kuyt or Voronin (or last year Keane) plays off Torres.

 

For my money, if Kuyt looks better in a 4-2-3-1 its not because his position or role is any different than in a 4-4-2 but because in Gerrard we have one of the world's best pulling the strings and not Voronin/Keane.

 

No

We only play a 4-2-3-1 when Gerrard is playing. Presumably because rafa doesn't trust anyone else to play in the middle of the 3.

When Gerrard isn't playing the forward who replaces him plays higher up the pitch and the two wide men play deeper. 4-4-2

The forward may drop occasionally, and the wide men may get forward but its not the same. I promise

[Chili Palmer]

No

We only play a 4-2-3-1 when Gerrard is playing. Presumably because rafa doesn't trust anyone else to play in the middle of the 3.

When Gerrard isn't playing the forward who replaces him plays higher up the pitch and the two wide men play deeper. 4-4-2

The forward may drop occasionally, and the wide men may get forward but its not the same. I promise

 

 

Thats how I read it. 4 2 3 1 with Gerrard, 4 4 2 without.

 

That might change with Aquilani tho.

[Knox_Harrington]

see you Friday at 10pm then

 

I've got a spare if anyone wants her

Not Friday - reckon I'm Waterlooing, seeing the folks. I'm also off the sauce, G, and it hurts. It burns.

 

Surely it would become a 4-2-4?

Or at least a 4-2-2-2 (Ah i guess you mean this. if one of the top 2 drops that is a sort of 4-2-3-1

Yeah, sort of. It depends on your notation because what hit me was that maybe it should be five lines instead of four. Three midfield lines. So I'd argue United came to Anfield playing 4-0-4-2-0 (both forwards playing as tens/sevens) and the intention was that Torres wouldn't play or is a wreck and Vidic isn't made of jelly and it'll be 0-4-4-2-0 and they'll totally push up on us, press us, dominate posession and control the game without a holding midfielder (which is what they've done against poorer sides in the last three years on the whole). That backfires and we play in the space of the first 0 of 4-0-4-2-0. You play 4-2-3-1 then who is where depends upon where the middle of the three and one of the two play. But if you push up at centre half then everyone in the spine goes forward a line apart from the wide midfielders.

[fred milne]

The two wide men play deeper.

This is the bit I'm not convinced by. I think they play much the same.

[Molby]

Not Friday - reckon I'm Waterlooing, seeing the folks. I'm also off the sauce, G, and it hurts. It burns.

 

 

Yeah, sort of. It depends on your notation because what hit me was that maybe it should be five lines instead of four. Three midfield lines. So I'd argue United came to Anfield playing 4-0-4-2-0 (both forwards playing as tens/sevens) and the intention was that Torres wouldn't play or is a wreck and Vidic isn't made of jelly and it'll be 0-4-4-2-0 and they'll totally push up on us, press us, dominate posession and control the game without a holding midfielder (which is what they've done against poorer sides in the last three years on the whole). That backfires and we play in the space of the first 0 of 4-0-4-2-0. You play 4-2-3-1 then who is where depends upon where the middle of the three and one of the two play. But if you push up at centre half then everyone in the spine goes forward a line apart from the wide midfielders.

 

I'm sorry for your loss and hope it's only temporary

 

anyway just thought of a plus point: last night we had 4 players in the box sometimes, from crosses from the left, like when Torres had his chance

 

very Man Utdesque that, and quite refreshing

Edited November 5, 2009 by Molby