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6+5 rule


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It will then get thrown out when someone takes it to court.

 

'Why should football be exempt etc. etc.'

 

Because the EU would have decided it should be and enshrined it in law.

 

FIFA are not gone off on some solo run here. They, the IOC, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Rugby etc etc have been talking collectively to the EU about this for the last several years.

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Why do I have a vision of Johnson being left footed? I seem to recall him putting Arsenal out of the cup (champions League) late on in a game a few years back with a run down the left and slotting the ball under the goalie. Was that he?

 

meanwhile, a Youtube compliation. Lots of defending....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFmzTt1aK6k

 

The goal of the season

 

I don't think that will ever come in.

 

Maybe there is a way

 

 

 

if the 6 5 rule is illegal then surely the 4 4 homegrown ruling for CL squads is also illegal?

 

 

Because it's got nothing to do with nationality. Spend three seasons before your 21st birthday training with that club and you are a homegrown player and association trained for any other club that takes you. Funnily enough, Fabregas would be a foreigner in a Barca CL squad.

 

The only way they could make something like this stick is to circumvent the law and push the homegrown idea into leagues and into team selection whilst at the same time banning the transfer of U18 players. This is the only way, however even that is open to a restraint of trade and freedom of movement suit.

 

This is my opinion of what is going on

 

The whole 6+5 idea is noble to the man on the street but is actually completely political on the front of FIFA and by proxy UEFA. The battle is for the pinnacle of global football that FIFA is seeking to re-establish for International Football in the face of the CL becoming the peak of football on this planet, with club sides and squads becoming stronger than International sides and squads.

 

By legislating to weaken the club sides and dissipate and reverse this concentration of the best players in a small number of leagues, FIFA hope to once again make club football the bitch of International football, there to create international footballers for a World Cup every two years and a continental title in the odd years. The only thing that stands in the way is EU law and billions and billions invested in the CL, the big national leagues and the global clubs, so not much.

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Because the EU would have decided it should be and enshrined it in law.

 

FIFA are not gone off on some solo run here. They, the IOC, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Rugby etc etc have been talking collectively to the EU about this for the last several years.

 

And its been rejected each time. It goes against EU law and is regarded as discrimination.

The last time UEFA took on the EU, they lost both with the Bosman ruling and with their quotas for european club tournaments.

 

The only relevance of signing English players, at this point, is that they will improve the squad and they will increase our quality of homegrown players for the CL.

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This is my opinion of what is going on

 

The whole 6+5 idea is noble to the man on the street but is actually completely political on the front of FIFA and by proxy UEFA. The battle is for the pinnacle of global football that FIFA is seeking to re-establish for International Football in the face of the CL becoming the peak of football on this planet, with club sides and squads becoming stronger than International sides and squads.

 

By legislating to weaken the club sides and dissipate and reverse this concentration of the best players in a small number of leagues, FIFA hope to once again make club football the bitch of International football, there to create international footballers for a World Cup every two years and a continental title in the odd years. The only thing that stands in the way is EU law and billions and billions invested in the CL, the big national leagues and the global clubs, so not much.

 

Hard to argue with that.

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This is my opinion of what is going on

 

The whole 6+5 idea is noble to the man on the street but is actually completely political on the front of FIFA and by proxy UEFA. The battle is for the pinnacle of global football that FIFA is seeking to re-establish for International Football in the face of the CL becoming the peak of football on this planet, with club sides and squads becoming stronger than International sides and squads.

 

By legislating to weaken the club sides and dissipate and reverse this concentration of the best players in a small number of leagues, FIFA hope to once again make club football the bitch of International football, there to create international footballers for a World Cup every two years and a continental title in the odd years. The only thing that stands in the way is EU law and billions and billions invested in the CL, the big national leagues and the global clubs, so not much.

 

Sounds plausible, but i'm not sure. Platini backs the 6+5 idea, which by your reasoning would weaken his own position. Platini doesn't have many admirers on here, but he comes across to me as a football purist and he believes the idea would strengthen grass-roots football in Europe. If it's a power struggle as you say you'd expect Platini to be on the strong as possible CL side as that's the dominant football competition in the world and his main source of power and influence. 

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And its been rejected each time. It goes against EU law and is regarded as discrimination.

The last time UEFA took on the EU, they lost both with the Bosman ruling and with their quotas for european club tournaments.

 

The only relevance of signing English players, at this point, is that they will improve the squad and they will increase our quality of homegrown players for the CL.

 

It hasn't been actually 'rejected' yet because a final decision on the 6+5 rule effectively hasn't been taken. 6+5 is against EU law as it is currently constituted but until the "study to analyse all aspects of this complex issue" (European Commission's words, not mine) comes back with recommendations for provisions on sport in treaty form, we don't actually know what will happen.

 

And the reason precedent is not as relevant as many seem to think it is is because of a change in attitude towards sport at Commission level (made clear in the EU white paper on sport a couple of years ago) and also because FIFA are involved in a highly strategic, organised and political long game in partnership with all the major European sports bodies at Commission level.

 

I'm not saying that it's good, bad or indifferent. I'm just saying that it's not at all prudent to dismiss this out of hand, as many here seem to do. 6+5 might happen, when who knows - probably in the post Lisbon-ratification scenario - and I trust the club recognise the potential huge impact of that where many fans do not.

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It hasn't been actually 'rejected' yet because a final decision on the 6+5 rule effectively hasn't been taken. 6+5 is against EU law as it is currently constituted but until the "study to analyse all aspects of this complex issue" (European Commission's words, not mine) comes back with recommendations for provisions on sport in treaty form, we don't actually know what will happen.

 

And the reason precedent is not as relevant as many seem to think it is is because of a change in attitude towards sport at Commission level (made clear in the EU white paper on sport a couple of years ago) and also because FIFA are involved in a highly strategic, organised and political long game in partnership with all the major European sports bodies at Commission level.

 

I'm not saying that it's good, bad or indifferent. I'm just saying that it's not at all prudent to dismiss this out of hand, as many here seem to do. 6+5 might happen, when who knows - probably in the post Lisbon-ratification scenario - and I trust the club recognise the potential huge impact of that where many fans do not.

 

The initial proposal was rejected last year by 518 votes to 49. They have subsequently stated that they are open to discuss 'sporting matters' further, but that their current position is clear. Further to this they also stated that they fully backed UEFA's homegrown proposals.

 

I'm not dismissing it in the long term, but it wont be a siginificant issue for us in the short term. FIFA want to introduce this within 2 years. Its not going to happen that quickly, if at all. Any proposal could, in theory, be challenged by any player or any football club/association. It will end up in a costly legal battle, which noone wants.

 

The discussion about whether we wanted to sign Barry and Johnson, due to the 6 + 5 ruling is incorrect. We need to sign quality English players for our CL squad now. This is a far greater priority for us.

Edited by roegahnn
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Why is everyone getting hung up about the eu law , at the end of the day if the fa and all the governing bodies agree to only use that many players then the 6-5 rule will stand.

 

In cricket you can only use 1 overseas player , whats the difference.If all the clubs and leagues agree then its nothing to do with eu law.Because teams will only field the required players.I use cricket as an example because they do exactly what the eu says you cant

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the problem with the 6+5 is it will kill football in the smaller leagues. who will give up a foreigner spot to Eboue? O'Shea?

 

Also, lots of players who have forged international careers in Africa, Carribean, Ireland, Scotland, Wales because oftheir grandmother twice removed will no longer do that, because will reduce their earning potential in England/Spain.

 

Would Messi declare for Argentina if paid 20k more a week to declare for spain instread?

 

My money is on the 4+4 rule withstopping players moving under 18.

 

My points are also in the relevant thread though, so back to transfers in this one!!

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football has been different before..

 

Bosman ruling...

Platini and Blatter were sent away with a flea in their ears by Scudamore as it isn't binding as it hasn't and cannot have any basis in law - he had this weird idea Platini and Blatter were trying to hamper the Premiership...weird.

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Why is everyone getting hung up about the eu law , at the end of the day if the fa and all the governing bodies agree to only use that many players then the 6-5 rule will stand.

 

In cricket you can only use 1 overseas player , whats the difference.If all the clubs and leagues agree then its nothing to do with eu law.Because teams will only field the required players.I use cricket as an example because they do exactly what the eu says you cant

In cricket, most of the overseas players are not EU citizens - in football, they are - like us Agger, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Skrtel, Kuyt, Babel, N'gog, Dossena and so forth.

 

It's not about the FA's, it's about the respective equivalent of the Premiership leagues in each country, and the individual clubs/owners/chairmen not minding having a handicap placed upon them.

 

The equation in England is thus : The big name foriegn stars bring in the revenue - matchdays, TV, sponsorships, export TV deals and the people want to see it - the fact that our mixed bag teams are so successful and the extra money allows yet more big international stars keeps this afloat - the goose that lays the golden egg. That's the Premiership view (The Premiership is a corporation in which the 20 member clubs act as shareholders) and it's repeated in most of the larger European leagues.

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In cricket, most of the overseas players are not EU citizens - in football, they are - like us Agger, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Skrtel, Kuyt, Babel, N'gog, Dossena and so forth.

 

It's not about the FA's, it's about the respective equivalent of the Premiership leagues in each country, and the individual clubs/owners/chairmen not minding having a handicap placed upon them.

 

In cricket most players is irrelevant , like i stated if all the bodies agree it could be done no problem,

 

Personally , i wouldnt like to see it come in but it could happen and has happened although under diff circumstances.

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In cricket most players is irrelevant , like i stated if all the bodies agree it could be done no problem,

 

Personally , i wouldnt like to see it come in but it could happen and has happened although under diff circumstances.

It's not irrelevant - in cricket, players from Australia, India, Pakistan, Sri-Lanka, South Africa, New Zealand, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and the West Indies are not subject to EU law, specifically those relating to employment and the freedom of movement and opprtunity. If the various associations agreed to a voluntary code - they can't enforce it as it breaks the law - then as long as everyone went along with it fine - but they won't - it only takes one player to object, let alone an official and it falls down as essentially it's protectionist and illegal - i.e., BIG problem.

 

The EU have made a point of telling Blatter to f**k off with this and other illegal ideas he dreams up for years.

Edited by fyds
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The initial proposal was rejected last year by 518 votes to 49. They have subsequently stated that they are open to discuss 'sporting matters' further, but that their current position is clear. Further to this they also stated that they fully backed UEFA's homegrown proposals.

 

I'm not dismissing it in the long term, but it wont be a siginificant issue for us in the short term. FIFA want to introduce this within 2 years. Its not going to happen that quickly, if at all. Any proposal could, in theory, be challenged by any player or any football club/association. It will end up in a costly legal battle, which noone wants.

 

The discussion about whether we wanted to sign Barry and Johnson, due to the 6 + 5 ruling is incorrect. We need to sign quality English players for our CL squad now. This is a far greater priority for us.

 

Agree with the timeframe you mention and agree that it probably had little significant bearing on signing Johnson.

 

If the Commission recommendations on sport (and specifically to access to individual competitions for non-nationals) were to be legislated upon as a provision of the Lisbon (or subsequent) treaty, then the chances of success of that individual or club is reduced in comparison to eg Bosman.

 

The only thing for sure is that this is ridiculously complicated.

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It's not irrelevant - in cricket, players from Australia, India, Pakistan, Sri-Lanka, South Africa, New Zealand, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and the West Indies are not subject to EU law, specifically those relating to employment and the freedom of movement and opprtunity. If the various associations agreed to a voluntary code - they can't enforce it as it breaks the law - then as long as everyone went along with it fine - but they won't - it only takes one player to object, let alone an official and it falls down as essentially it's protectionist and illegal - i.e., BIG problem.

 

The EU have made a point of telling Blatter to f**k off with this and other illegal ideas he dreams up for years.

 

Correct on the cricket, Blatter has wanted the FAs to observe "gentleman's agreement" style governance on the issue too. Difference is that as it stands it's not in the interest of any cricket club in England to challenge the legality of the rule.

 

The European assembly has rejected the 6+5 at vote. That was inevitable, same as it was inevitable that the consequence of that was that the issue was diverted to Commission level - the corridors of power where success or defeat was always going to occur for 6+5. And if a 6+5 favourable treaty provision was put to the assembly as a set of wider provisions, then it may well be ratified by the assembly and the treaty left to take it's chances at the Court of Justice if anyone (Premiership perhaps) was to take it forward.

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Platini got in on a platform of re-distributing the power and wealth across UEFA and away from the big three leagues. He got a lot of support and votes for this stance and tried to force through a radical change to CL entry including domestic cup winners getting the 4th spot, the changes we are going into next season are the compromise. 6+5 is right up his street, the sort of thing he was elected to push and he is Blatters lap dog after-all.

 

4+4 is UEFA's pet project alright but they are officially against 6+5 and have lobbied FIFA not to push through with it on the basis of existing EU law.

 

And FIFA are against 4+4 because Blatter reckons it encourages child labour.

 

It's not the idyllic partnership that some think.

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In cricket most players is irrelevant , like i stated if all the bodies agree it could be done no problem,

 

Personally , i wouldnt like to see it come in but it could happen and has happened although under diff circumstances.

 

 

His point about the cricket is the crux of the issue and far from irrelevant. The fact is you can restrict Non EU nationals movements within the EU, you can't do the same with EU nationals. Simple as that.

 

It'll never stand up

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All the legislation tinkering in the world wont prevent a CL winner and even the semi finalists coming from the big leagues.

 

I certainly hope not. Those teams got there by earning their place... if UEFA want a machine like the american sports that rotate their success to please the entire nation then they can f*** off. I'll stick to my real, competetive football thank you.

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4+4 is UEFA's pet project alright but they are officially against 6+5 and have lobbied FIFA not to push through with it on the basis of existing EU law.

 

And FIFA are against 4+4 because Blatter reckons it encourages child labour.

 

It's not the idyllic partnership that some think.

 

I didn't know this. So blatter is against child labour but he is open to discimination.

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Platini and Blatter were sent away with a flea in their ears by Scudamore as it isn't binding as it hasn't and cannot have any basis in law - he had this weird idea Platini and Blatter were trying to hamper the Premiership...weird.

 

it really is only sicne the Premiership starting taking over that all these regulations to try and make football 'fairer' started coming in isn't it.

 

you do not make something fairer by tinkering with it.... it is very obvious that the second you touch something the less fair it becomes. They just don't like the way it balances.

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