After Tomorrow Night's Game

[Knox_Harrington]

The show of support for the manager is going to be f***ing brilliant. You know it, I know it. It's going to knock the socks off anything.

 

But there's no guarantee that, allied to a win - and it will be a tough game - is going to get the job done. The job being keeping Rafa Benitez at Anfield. The next step in this process, beyond more of the same at Bolton, is to start asking the sort of difficult questions that the owners are currently avoiding as Rafa is the story. And they have to be asked as publically as possible.

 

Historically, I'm against this carry on. I'm against phone-ins and the like. But in this instance the entire game is now being played out in public. Any individual who believes there wasn't a problem prior to Thursday is, frankly, deluding his or herself. Rafa chose to make this public. He wants this played out in the public domain. Knowing what we know, he isn't allowed to sell and he has been blocked from signing free transfers prior to Thursday.

 

The only logical reason for that is that there are plans afoot for him not to be Liverpool manager over the short or medium-term. (January/next summer).*

 

This may or may not be a footballing decision. I veer towards the not, you may think otherwise, but with the support the manager has we deserve to know whether or not it is. There's a series of questions thrown up by this affair which currently aren't being engaged with elsewhere.

 

- Is the football club well served by two owners who only turn up for big games, while wanting to control major activity of the football club?

- Are they adequately supporting Rafa?

- What, precisely, is Rick Parry's role in this and at the club?

- Have the weaknesses of the American economy undermined the plans of our new owners?

- What touch of brilliance are we going to see from the Hicks/Gillet partnership that marks them out above the DIC option as said to us by Parry at the time of the takeover?

 

What we have to do after Wednesday is ask these questions. Write to the newspapers, national and local, to the club and start ringing the dreaded phone-ins.

 

When you speak to the phone-ins, both local and national, stay on the point. Don't get side tracked into discussions of Benitez's record or current form - tomorrow night makes every point about that for you. He is supported by the vast, vast majority of the support. Make the point that we are being woefully underinformed and that there is more going on than Rafa being grouchy in a press conference and from that point build into one of the above questions. Don't over commit into answers, don't over-complicate. Just stick to your point. eg:

 

Caller: It's coming to something when we can't make a move for a player until they can be bothered to head over for Man U at home.

Spoony: But don't you think the owners have the right to question his record in the transfer market?

Caller: Tonight/Wednesday makes the point the point what the supporters think of that. And don't we, as supporters, have the right to question why they won't back the manager and allow him to make free transfers? Is it that they are that strapped for cash or that they don't back him. How can they not back him when they aren't even here on the ground. Do you think they even watched the game tonight/Wednesday, Spoony?

Spoony: Well....

 

Call the phone-in host by name. This isn't John Humphries. These are people who like the fact you are being "friendly" with them.

 

Some people need to take the responsibility to ring Merseyside, others 5Live. If at home I'll hit 5live at 10pm though I do hope to be at the game. It doesn't need to happen tomorrow night but it needs to start happening after tomorrow night.

 

Get calling and writing and emailing. This is what we do next for Rafa.

 

*Even if you disagree with this logical reason, the only other reason is incompetence. If you believe that then start asking about that. This cannot be allowed to happen again. We've every right to demand more from the owners.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Knox_Harrington

[alias75]

I certainly think the point that their in the US and there seems to be very little contact on a day to day basis is a valid criticism. I also think that most football people will side with Rafa in that you can't tell a manager he has to wait until a certain date before any ins or outs are even discussed, that clearly shows they don't understand how football transfers work.

[Knox_Harrington]

I certainly think the point that their in the US and there seems to be very little contact on a day to day basis is a valid criticism. I also think that most football people will side with Rafa in that you can't tell a manager he has to wait until a certain date before any ins or outs are even discussed, that clearly shows they don't understand how football transfers work.

At the moment the prevailing view among the wider footballing public is that Rafa threw a thrombie off nothing and you shouldn't argue with your bosses and all he wants is more money and he's already had a wedge. Let's get working to change that view.

[Jarg Armani]

i've been thinking about the phone ins today neil, had already formulated a call about parry in my head. great minds eh. same here anyway, if i'm not there (i probably will be) i'm right on it.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Jarg Armani

[mooks]

Agree with everything Knox has said - apart from then not knowing the minute details of the day-to-day operations of the club.

 

They are so up to date they even know what kind of suit Rafa wears at the games!

 

Now there is dedicated ownership

[alias75]

At the moment the prevailing view among the wider footballing public is that Rafa threw a thrombie off nothing and you shouldn't argue with your bosses and all he wants is more money and he's already had a wedge. Let's get working to change that view.

 

Well ive heard 2 managers talk about that point and they both agreed with Rafa. You can't tell a manager when he can and can't work on transfers in and out of the club. You can tell him the moneys not there for certain deals, but to say we wont even discuss buying OR SELLING until we come over on the 16th just doesnt make any footballing sense at all, and clearly proves that G+H don't understand the European transfer system. The fact is we shouldn't expect them to understand it fully, but neither should they dictate to Rafa on footballing matters unless its telling him what he can and can't spend.

[Molby]

nice one Knox

 

people: this is a heartfelt plea for those who want to keep Rafa - please do not hijack the thread with another set of discussions about how the current rift is perceived/who is to blame/how serious it is, etc etc, please, just this once

 

a lot of work has gone in to protests/shows of support of all kinds, including this phone in idea... and an accompanying bit of press which is being worked on now and hopefully will see print soon

 

if you're not interested, please just move on as there are plenty of other threads where we can debate the wider issue

 

right now, please comment on, add advice, opinion etc about the phone in and how to maximise it's potential for the purpose of challenging G and H, engaging the wider LFC support, and the media, and supporting Rafa

[Frosty Jack]

If nothing else keep the support up online, and it will contribute.

 

I've banged this drum repeatedly, because it was f***ing annoying that the simple concept was so glibly dismissed a few weeks ago, and still is by some, but I guarantee they have someone in their office trawling these very forums in their downtime, to gauge "fan opinion". They'd be nuts not to.

The Sky coverage the last few days has implied that most Liverpool fans don't care if he is fired. Is that true? Was it in October?If you had been reading on here 3 weeks ago you might agree. The media check it, so do the owners.

 

If we realized that the posting on the web is not just an anonymous, consequence-free, release of frustration, then maybe a worse situation can be avoided in the future.

Best fans in the world? in online terms, which is how most of the world sees us, we are no better than Spurs or Newcastle.

Vocal dissent at the ground and posting "rotate yourself back to spain" or whatever, whenever we fail to win a game (and occasionally when we do) are in reality, no different. In fact the latter might be worse, as it is available to anyone with access to google, and is permanent, you are essentially writing history.

[Knox_Harrington]

Molby, you've mail.

[Archangel]

I'm behind the support for Benitez but using that to launch an attack on the owners is not only futile but counter productive and childish. You wont win, you'll create further division and recrimination and you'll damage the long term interests of the club

 

This is beginning to get out of hand and fans need to start to think about the bigger picture. This is not to suggest any abandonment of support for the beleaguered manager but starting a campaign against Gillette and Hicks will damage the club for years to come

 

There needs to be a third way

[Knox_Harrington]

If nothing else keep the support up online, and it will contribute.

 

I've banged this drum repeatedly, because it was f***ing annoying that the simple concept was so glibly dismissed a few weeks ago, and still is by some, but I guarantee they have someone in their office trawling these very forums in their downtime, to gauge "fan opinion". They'd be nuts not to.

The Sky coverage the last few days has implied that most Liverpool fans don't care if he is fired. Is that true? Was it in October?If you had been reading on here 3 weeks ago you might agree. The media check it, so do the owners.

 

If we realized that the posting on the web is not just an anonymous, consequence-free, release of frustration, then maybe a worse situation can be avoided in the future.

Best fans in the world? in online terms, which is how most of the world sees us, we are no better than Spurs or Newcastle.

Vocal dissent at the ground and posting "rotate yourself back to spain" or whatever, whenever we fail to win a game (and occasionally when we do) are in reality, no different. In fact the latter might be worse, as it is available to anyone with access to google, and is permanent, you are essentially writing history.

I'm still semi-sceptical of this but:

 

a) Am beginning to think this is my own Luddite tendencies. And sheer fear that someone who can't even spell "SpiritualWarrior" correctly in his own username is deemed to be a barometer of opinion about football over my uncle Robert who goes everywhere and has done for 30 years but could never be bothered to get on a website.

b) This isn't the place to discuss it - that's over a drink when you are back.

 

I do generally think people should engage brain before posting but that's as much for my having to read it as anything else.

[Joey]

Caller: It's coming to something when we can't make a move for a player until they can be bothered to head over for Man U at home.

Spoony: But don't you think the owners have the right to question his record in the transfer market?

Caller: f*** off Spoony you insipid c***. Tonight/Wednesday makes the point the point what the supporters think of that. And don't we, as supporters, have the right to question why they won't back the manager and allow him to make free transfers? Is it that they are that strapped for cash or that they don't back him. How can they not back him when they aren't even here on the ground. Do you think they even watched the game tonight/Wednesday, Spoony?

Spoony: Well....

[Paisley]

I certainly think the point that their in the US and there seems to be very little contact on a day to day basis is a valid criticism.

 

I think that's been the root cause of the whole problem, if they had daily contact like most chairmen then this would have blown over in a day or so. Instead they've been communicating through press conferences and official statements, and once amplified by the press we've ended up with a crisis. What is the point of their sons being over here if they have no say whatsoever? whats the point? We can't wait until you turn up for the big games to get things sorted, either devote yourself properly to the running of the club, and act on the promises you made, or sell up to someone who will run the club properly.

[Knox_Harrington]

I'm behind the support for Benitez but using that to launch an attack on the owners is not only futile but counter productive and childish. You wont win, you'll create further division and recrimination and you'll damage the long term interests of the club

 

This is beginning to get out of hand and fans need to start to think about the bigger picture. This is not to suggest any abandonment of support for the beleaguered manager but starting a campaign against Gillette and Hicks will damage the club for years to come

 

There needs to be a third way

I'd argue that the situation that has developed has damaged the long term interests of the club. We haven't created that situation and neither has the manager. I don't see what's childish about asking to be informed about what is going on while we all invest £35 a week in the game and have a long standing emotional attachment and I don't see this as a campaign against the owners.

 

If they came out and (hypothetically) said, "We're a bit skint at the minute but we wholly back the manager, we're offering him a new deal, will support his efforts within our skintness in the transfer market and are drawing a line under the whole affair (look at the new deal)," then I'd be made up.

 

This is the third way. It's not calling them c****, but it's asking for a bit more in terms of commitment both to the manager and to the cause.

[Rimbeux]

At the moment the prevailing view among the wider footballing public is that Rafa threw a thrombie off nothing and you shouldn't argue with your bosses and all he wants is more money and he's already had a wedge. Let's get working to change that view.

 

 

This is crucial. it's about getting that message out wherever and whenever possible, This is not about money, it's about the role of a football manager and the way the club is being run. We can change the slant of the news coverage.

[alias75]

nice one Knox

 

people: this is a heartfelt plea for those who want to keep Rafa - please do not hijack the thread with another set of discussions about how the current rift is perceived/who is to blame/how serious it is, etc etc, please, just this once

 

a lot of work has gone in to protests/shows of support of all kinds, including this phone in idea... and an accompanying bit of press which is being worked on now and hopefully will see print soon

 

if you're not interested, please just move on as there are plenty of other threads where we can debate the wider issue

 

right now, please comment on, add advice, opinion etc about the phone in and how to maximise it's potential for the purpose of challenging G and H, engaging the wider LFC support, and the media, and supporting Rafa

 

Not sure if thats aimed at my post but i do think thats a valid line of attack. The whole spat seems to have stemmed from Rafa not being allowed to get potential deals done and dusted and if we believe the Echo its meant we've already missed out on 1 player because of this.

 

We can debate whether or not Rafa was out of line the way he behaved in the press conference but the point is should overseas owners that know very little about football be telling the manager when he can and can't discuss potential ins and outs? I think thats a valid question to ask.

[Guest Kaizer]

If nothing else keep the support up online, and it will contribute.

 

I've banged this drum repeatedly, because it was f***ing annoying that the simple concept was so glibly dismissed a few weeks ago, and still is by some, but I guarantee they have someone in their office trawling these very forums in their downtime, to gauge "fan opinion". They'd be nuts not to.

 

So whats your saying is that I should never have posted that Sporting Director vs Manager thread, well f*** me sideways I was thinking along the lines of someone else than Parry in such a role.

 

Jokes aside, I agree completely with Knox, these are important questions and they need to be asked and answered.

 

Another question is what can actually the owners come up with to restore any kind of faith from the fans?

 

Thats a difficult one.

[Molby]

time for Negativland to join the focus group, with special responsibility for online campaign

 

ha, just like Thunderbirds in a way..err well anyway, he, probably more than anyone else here, knows about internet communication for guerilla marketing purposes- so we need to focus on this aspect next

 

so D: - where and when?

[Rimbeux]

I'm behind the support for Benitez but using that to launch an attack on the owners is not only futile but counter productive and childish. You wont win, you'll create further division and recrimination and you'll damage the long term interests of the club

 

This is beginning to get out of hand and fans need to start to think about the bigger picture. This is not to suggest any abandonment of support for the beleaguered manager but starting a campaign against Gillette and Hicks will damage the club for years to come

 

There needs to be a third way

 

 

The long terms interests of the club are best supported by at the very least holding the owners to account. This is the bigger picture.

 

Who's going to do it? Not the manager if this goes the way it's headed, there may never be another one, not David Moores, certainly not Rick Parry. It's down to the support.

 

 

Ask the questions, demand the answers, make sure pledges are made and stuck to. If we say nothing, leave all to trust and benefit of the doubt and then things go wrong, who's left with the remains. These guys every move needs microscopic scrutiny for the good of us all.

[Knox_Harrington]

Ignore.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Knox_Harrington

[Knox_Harrington]

By the way, anyone who is reasonably active on other fora and agrees with this, feel free to copy and paste.

[nb]

Hicks really seems to be a prick of the highest order. The piece below is from an article from the Daily Mail about what happened when Hicks two weeks ago sacked the general manager of his baseball team:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1779

 

"Whether the change of tack has come in time to save Benitez from the wrath of Hicks remains to be seen. A cheery smile may be constantly on standby for the nearest camera, but the Texan's 'good ol' boy' image only goes so far.

 

When it comes to business, he acts on instinct first and thinks about the consequences for others later, if at all.

 

After seeing his Dallas Stars ice hockey team struggle in the NHL, he decided the time had arrived for action a fortnight ago and sacked general manager Doug Armstrong without even consulting president Jim Lites. There was a good reason for that. Lites was on his way, too, after Hicks decided he should be replaced by his Texas Rangers baseball team president Jeff Cogen.

 

As he surveyed the carnage that was completed in the space of 24 hours, Hicks let out a sigh of satisfaction and said: "I'm the owner. It's what I do. Honestly, I feel very good today. I think I'm getting a lot accomplished.

 

"I feel good about the direction of the baseball team now. It's taken a while. Now, I want to get the hockey team back to where it was at. I want it to be at an elite level."

[Maldini]

Great thread, as Knox has said in other threads, tomorrow night will show our brawn, but to make a telling impact we need to show our brains too and conduct a PR campaign (for want of a less sickening phrase).

 

The media have taken their usual step of simplifying the story and in doing so have erased the truth. It's up to us to stop this process by getting the facts out there in an uncomplicated manner. Journalists love nothing more than having a story virtually written for them, we need to give them the narrative with the irrefutable facts and get them to ask the questions for us. It's one thing having a mass e-mail campaign or whatever, but national media asking the questions puts a lot of pressure on them to answer.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Maldini

[Earl Hafler]

Hicks really seems to be a prick of the highest order. The piece below is from an article from the Daily Mail about what happened when Hicks two weeks ago sacked the general manager of his baseball team:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1779

 

"Whether the change of tack has come in time to save Benitez from the wrath of Hicks remains to be seen. A cheery smile may be constantly on standby for the nearest camera, but the Texan's 'good ol' boy' image only goes so far.

 

When it comes to business, he acts on instinct first and thinks about the consequences for others later, if at all.

 

After seeing his Dallas Stars ice hockey team struggle in the NHL, he decided the time had arrived for action a fortnight ago and sacked general manager Doug Armstrong without even consulting president Jim Lites. There was a good reason for that. Lites was on his way, too, after Hicks decided he should be replaced by his Texas Rangers baseball team president Jeff Cogen.

 

As he surveyed the carnage that was completed in the space of 24 hours, Hicks let out a sigh of satisfaction and said: "I'm the owner. It's what I do. Honestly, I feel very good today. I think I'm getting a lot accomplished.

 

"I feel good about the direction of the baseball team now. It's taken a while. Now, I want to get the hockey team back to where it was at. I want it to be at an elite level."

 

Bloody hell. I think that needs to be in the other thread for us to discuss it, though.

[Rimbeux]

Bloody hell. I think that needs to be in the other thread for us to discuss it, though.

 

Thread of it's own