Some Athens sense

[Guest Snorky]

I'm sorry if this ends up too long-winded, but certain things have got to be put straight now the dust?s starting to settle a bit on our little jaunt to Athens. The first thing that needs addressing is the absolute hysteria that?s taken over in certain quarters. The all too easy throwing around of words like scum, shame, hooligans etc. etc. is the first thing that needs addressing. Forty thousand plus people were out there, the vast, vast majority behaved impeccably. This vast, vast majority have nothing whatsoever to do with the rats and criminal gangs that inevitably try to cash in on an event like Athens. Would you believe it, even those angels in red down the M62 had forgeries, touts and ticket snatchers at Wembley! I resent the insinuation, it's all too often been bordering upon outright accusation, in many quarters (alright RAWK and .tv!) that because I?m a Scouser I?m somehow linked to such s****hawks and muggers. If that?s your attitude, then it?s you that has no place at Anfield, not me.

 

A number of points have been lost in the mix of upset and anger that gained momentum on the various forums over the past week and a bit.

 

There was no attempt at segregating the city centre as often happens for big finals; even if, like Istanbul, it doesn?t completely succeed. There were loads from both sides mixing, wandering round everywhere, sleeping rough, bevvying, singing and all the rest of it, yet no firms squaring up, no mad chases, no kick-offs to speak of. In short no, FOOTBALL hooliganism as we recognise it around the city.

 

There was no segregation in the ground or the surrounding complex. There were Liverpool and Milan fans fully mixed in the blocks either side of the half way line. There were literally thousands of reds, including a block of nearly 1000, all around the Milan end. You could walk all around the stadium concourse and not be stopped. But, there was no fighting between the rival supporters. So, no FOOTBALL hooliganism in the ground.

 

We lost the European Cup, had a bit of a nightmare at the hands of the Greek riot plod and 90% of us (including bunkers) stayed to applaud Milan?s trophy presentation. We ended up back in Monastiraki with loads of Milan fans. Loads of ale, loads of singing, and still no FOOTBALL trouble. In fact the Milan lads ended up dancing round the square with the Liverpool lads? replica European Cup!

 

There were bad things happening though. The combined forces of UEFA and LFC in the corporate hijacking of the European Cup Final had fed us into the hands of criminals and blaggers, not football hooligans or scallies, but proper full-on organised crime. Self-police that RAWK! I can just see the dawn raids! Thousands of long-time match going regulars desperate for a ticket made a lucrative captive market for touts and forgers alike.

 

By creating a ticket shortage, a simple manipulation of supply and demand, UEFA (and to a lesser, but more disappointing, extent LFC) had made many tickets worth more money than a second-hand car or a Rolex watch. The potential to make a killing in these circumstances was never going to be ignored in any big city and the blaggers moved into action. At a lower level, lower than a snakes belly level that is, every city has muggers. With the potential to rake in up to a grand from each ticket snatched, the low life was never going to be far away. As for the more opportunist ticket snatcher ? well imagine everyone walking through the streets holding a thousand pound watch in the air! It would be f***in carnage in any town - the bizzies have to tell people to hide mobile phones and MP3 players cos they'll be had off. Would you expect different in a disorganised crowd being bundled into a stadium?

 

The muggers and robbers were f*** all to do with Liverpool Football Club, the Kop, or any other football thing ? for f***?s sake, some even blame RTK! Muggers on the streets of Athens, tell you what blame some lads who want to sing old-style Liverpool songs. Thatcher couldn?t have dreamt that one up, not even in our darkest days.

 

The one?s who were something to do with us, though, were the bell ends in Syntagma (spelling?) Square lashing full cans of ale around, the pricks abusing Milan fans without any thought for the tribute the Italians had paid to the Hillsborough victims at the 1989 European Cup semi-final, the g*******s abusing locals without any thought about the links built up with Olympiakos around the Gate 7 disaster, and the c**** who chose to cause a crush and a stampede to get in without any thought for any one at all.

 

The lashing ale around and the general acting-the-c***-Mingland-type behaviour is something we have long taken pride in distancing ourselves from. But the writing?s been on the wall for some time, and it?s not just the out of town influence.

 

Witness the scenes in town last year for the World Cup and compare that to 1990. Last year we had ?pebbleheadstock? in Clayton Square, with hundreds of c**** acting just like the rural rioters that took to the streets of middle England after Gazza and co. blew it in Italy. In 1990 there was a calm indifference in Liverpool to the shenanigans at the World Cup; the American Bar (then in its pre ?Irish American? state) was adorned with an Irish Tricolour with Yankee Urchins written across it ? and Ireland were in Mingland?s group! ?No alla Violenza? t-shirts were our antidote to the national team?s divvy following. Fast forward to 2006 and it?s St George crosses everywhere and iron girder in front of the big screen in town ? times have changed, Liverpool has its own Sky generation.

 

How did it come to this?

 

I look back to the aftermath of Heysel and the formation of the Football Supporters Association in Liverpool as the start of the rebirth of our football culture. We had some growing up to do in 1985 and we did it. That generation, Scousers and long-standing out of towners alike, became the hardcore of our support that is still there today; making up, in fact, the majority of the season ticket holders that were f***ed over in ballot #1. We took the worst that the game could throw at us in 1989 and still stuck resolutely to the task, adding to our fan-culture with a proliferation of fanzines. The legendary End and the Farm made crossover between football, terrace clobber and music, even took us clubbing in Manchester! My own What?s the Score? came and went and Ste Kelly?s Through the Wind and Rain has more than passed the test of time.

 

Self-policing wasn?t needed as such, there was a unity of purpose in our support; justice for Hillsborough, no Kop seats, opposition to ID cards, no racism etc. Also, we used our newly founded media to make our stand against the Mingland Brit abroad culture. Act like some did in that stinking square and you?d have been a laughing stock at best and t****** all over the place at worst. The absolute sea change in the nature of Liverpool?s support since the turn of the century, however, has taken large sections of our long-standing support by surprise. The trickle of 2001 turned into a flood in 2005 and now we?ve got to the situation where a group of people trying to protect what?s left are being slated by the new brigade. A new brigade that thinks ?f*** you I?ll do what I like? and then cries when some f***in street-rat does likewise and has them off.

 

This is the self-same new brigade that talks of our support as scum, the same people advocating self-policing and grassing on bunkers. The same people who don?t realise that the best way they can make the match an enjoyable and safe experience is to JOIN WITH what?s left of the class of 1985-89 and protect the unique fan culture that was recreated post-Heysel. The Police, UEFA, Liverpool Football Club, the SAS, Al Qaeda, nobody, will make two f***s of an effort to sort out the likes of the rats who swarmed around those who couldn?t fight back in Athens. They?re bombing around every town and city every day and no-one?s doing f*** all about them, so why will anyone act because of a petition on .tv?

 

The much-maligned RTK is, in reality, the best vehicle we?ve got for protecting and enhancing our fan culture, a vehicle for all of us, Scouse and non-Scouse. Get clued up, join the bandwagon, enjoy the match and stand together as no other group as diverse as us can. Out of town supporters, do what the lads of the 70?s and 80?s did, when it was far more aggressive. f***in join in and become part of the big f***-off party. Don?t stand on the outside acting like a t** and then wonder why you get picked off by the rats. Stop sniping and s***ting it, no pebble headed c*** in a Lowey will ever get away with using the ?RTK trick? against any clued up wool. Just like the ?got the time??/?where d?ye get yer trainees?/ ?lends yer odds? tricks didn?t work on the sound lads from the likes of Doncaster, Wigan and Stoke in the 70s/80s. There?s me f***in olive branch, take it or leave it!

 

It was easy for the rats in Athens. The ticketing fiasco, the effect that had on travel arrangements and the lack of accommodation in Athens because of some international conference all led to the old hands being scattered to the four corners. I make no apologies to our woolabilly brethren for this, but the lack of thousands of match going Scousers, lads who were stuck on ferries, trains and in all sorts of Athenian suburbs, made that city a more dangerous, and definitely a less ?Liverpool in Europe? like, place for many out of towners.

 

The Hillsborough comparisons have been grating at me. It was a bit hairy, even more so for the likes of my missus and arl feller. But the Hillsborough crush was f*** all to do with lads trying to storm the gates. We were crushed outside in a bottleneck, with more people trying to get through the bottleneck than our entire allocation for Athens, that the police abandoned and thousands (ALL WITH f***IN TICKETS) were allowed to enter an already full pen while the side pens remained largely empty. So leave Hillsborough out of this, it?s about as relevant to Athens as the Bradford fire.

 

The Athens gate stormers have to recognise this though, the Taylor Inquiry heard evidence of us having prior ?form? for turning up ticketless and late (the mass bunk-in at Norwich away in 1988 was mentioned). Luckily Lord Justice Taylor could see the wood for the trees. Even if only for the way it armed our enemies though, the way people were trampled and crushed in Athens during the storming of the gate was an unforgivable and shameful act for Liverpool supporters to be involved in.

 

BUT, and it?s a big but. For UEFA to throw this ?collective responsibility? thing about absolutely beggars belief. For c****, like some on RAWK and .tv, to accept it is absolutely breathtaking in its naivety. Anyone who puts on an event has a duty of care to provide a safe environment for those attending. How the f*** did UEFA go anywhere near achieving that? By Galliard?s (or whatever he?s called) logic if I pay to go to a concert, I am responsible for policing touts, checking tickets and stopping people gatecrashing. Absolute b******s of the highest order.

 

I?ll finish somewhere near where I started, the supporters of both sides saved UEFA?s a*** big time and that should be the BIG story. The Olympiakos mass bunk-in to the Olympic Stadium was all over You-Tube but nobody saw fit to guard against similar happening. Liverpool was literally swimming in fake tickets yet nobody saw fit to act upon local Police advice and filter the fakes out. The corporate hijack left us desperate and in disarray, now we?ve got to regroup like in 1985 and leave the hysterics to the tabloids.

 

There?s loads more but I?ll leave it there, sorry for going on.

 

================================================================================

 

Personally I think this is spot on. I was one who called those fans who stormed the gates scum, and I still do. But this post(er) puts things well in perspective.

[Guest Greasy Belcher]

Good Read that. Thanks for posting it.

[Spike]

a solid perspective and a good read, but even in Istanbul there were knobheads with tickets getting impatient, pushing, and saying we should rush the police. Even though most who went had tickets.

[Mike]

its well put together but i don't agree with it to be honest

[Snookie]

Sorry, I dont think this does anything other than illustrate some of the attitudes and underlying assumptions that need to change. While EUFA, and by extension the club, were responsible for the ticketing fiasco, they were not responsible for how some 'fans' behaved. If more than 39,000 can act with dignity and respect then the behaviour of a small minority is simply down to them. Or maybe the vast majority's behaviour was the result of the "corporate hijacking" of the event. We, as fans, need to acknowledge that there are problems in our fan-base and address them. We should not either try to ignore/minimise the problem or seek to blame someone else for the behaviour of people associated with the fanbase as this person does.

 

Suggesting that RTK is either misunderstood or a potential solution to the problem is just self-serving nonsense. The issue isn't one to do with scousers or OTTs ( I particularly love this particular "don't blame us" line from the piece "But the writing?s been on the wall for some time, and it?s not just the out of town influence."). Having said that I also like this "Scouse as mother f***ing Theresa line" "also I make no apologies to our woolabilly brethren for this, but the lack of thousands of match going Scousers, lads who were stuck on ferries, trains and in all sorts of Athenian suburbs, made that city a more dangerous, and definitely a less ?Liverpool in Europe? like, place for many out of towners") Its defining the nature of Liverpool support in those terms. You are either a Liverpool fan or you're not. Where you come from is immaterial. But if you start dividing people into some kind of hierarchy because of where they happen to be born then you end up with idiots abusing people you because you are not from happy clappy scouse land. I've had that experience. I know people who had it in Athens and if Liverpool-born fans don't think it is an issue then wise up.

Edited June 3, 2007 by snookiejane

[JohnnyH]

Sorry, but I think that the whole post misses the mark entierly. He is suggesting that this was not football trouble, well yes it was. I saw with my own eyes as people in Liverpool shirts attacked other people in Liverpool shirts for their tickets. While UEFA have to take a large portion of the blame, so do a small portion of the fans. No one forced them to belt the crap out of a fellow fan for his ticket. If he doesn't think that some our fans acted like scum, then he needs to open his eyes and see the real world becasue he's living in cloud f***ing cuckoo land.

 

As Mike said, nicely constructed, but I don't agree.

[Guest paisley81]

Sorry, but I think that the whole post misses the mark entierly. He is suggesting that this was not football trouble, well yes it was. I saw with my own eyes as people in Liverpool shirts attacked other people in Liverpool shirts for their tickets. While UEFA have to take a large portion of the blame, so do a small portion of the fans. No one forced them to belt the crap out of a fellow fan for his ticket. If he doesn't think that some our fans acted like scum, then he needs to open his eyes and see the real world becasue he's living in cloud f***ing cuckoo land.

 

As Mike said, nicely constructed, but I don't agree.

 

did you read the article, or just skim it?

 

he made it perfectly clear that there was an element of scum there.

 

superb read and completely spot on. the reaction in certain quarters of our support was way over the top.

Edited June 3, 2007 by paisley81

[Frosty Jack]

its well put together but i don't agree with it to be honest

 

Me neither, he's way off. Blaming out of towners for the aggressive element is just bizarre.

Why does he need to make that distinction, about 3 or 4 times? And where does he draw the line? Aigburth? ffs

[JohnnyH]

did you read the article, or just skim it?

 

he made it perfectly clear that there was an element of scum there.

 

superb read and completely spot on. the reaction in certain quarters of our support was way over the top.

 

You might want to read it again yourself lad.

[owenthomas]

did you read the article, or just skim it?

 

he made it perfectly clear that there was an element of scum there.

 

superb read and completely spot on. the reaction in certain quarters of our support was way over the top.

as Johnny says, you might want to read it again..

 

i think there's large parts of the article way way off.. snookiejane makes better points than that article.. i'm assuming its from Reclaim The Kop? i remember reading a thread on there pre-Athens (about the ticketing/ballot situation) and there were a lot of posts that were just ridiculous - one in particular was depressing - saying that he was going to Athens and he was going to get in and see that final "even if it meant knocking the f***ing walls down" (i made a comment at the time that the lad should be ashamed of himself).. unfortunateluy i bet he's one of the little rats that robbed a ticket or suchlike..

[fabfive]

Self-policing wasn?t needed as such, there was a unity of purpose in our support; justice for Hillsborough, no Kop seats, opposition to ID cards, no racism etc. Also, we used our newly founded media to make our stand against the Mingland Brit abroad culture. Act like some did in that stinking square and you?d have been a laughing stock at best and t****** all over the place at worst. The absolute sea change in the nature of Liverpool?s support since the turn of the century, however, has taken large sections of our long-standing support by surprise. The trickle of 2001 turned into a flood in 2005 and now we?ve got to the situation where a group of people trying to protect what?s left are being slated by the new brigade. A new brigade that thinks ?f*** you I?ll do what I like? and then cries when some f***in street-rat does likewise and has them off.

 

This is the self-same new brigade that talks of our support as scum, the same people advocating self-policing and grassing on bunkers. The same people who don?t realise that the best way they can make the match an enjoyable and safe experience is to JOIN WITH what?s left of the class of 1985-89 and protect the unique fan culture that was recreated post-Heysel. The Police, UEFA, Liverpool Football Club, the SAS, Al Qaeda, nobody, will make two f***s of an effort to sort out the likes of the rats who swarmed around those who couldn?t fight back in Athens. They?re bombing around every town and city every day and no-one?s doing f*** all about them, so why will anyone act because of a petition on .tv?

 

The much-maligned RTK is, in reality, the best vehicle we?ve got for protecting and enhancing our fan culture, a vehicle for all of us, Scouse and non-Scouse. Get clued up, join the bandwagon, enjoy the match and stand together as no other group as diverse as us can. Out of town supporters, do what the lads of the 70?s and 80?s did, when it was far more aggressive. f***in join in and become part of the big f***-off party. Don?t stand on the outside acting like a t** and then wonder why you get picked off by the rats. Stop sniping and s***ting it, no pebble headed c*** in a Lowey will ever get away with using the ?RTK trick? against any clued up wool. Just like the ?got the time??/?where d?ye get yer trainees?/ ?lends yer odds? tricks didn?t work on the sound lads from the likes of Doncaster, Wigan and Stoke in the 70s/80s. There?s me f***in olive branch, take it or leave it!

 

Reading these three paragraphs together..is this suggesting RTK wants all to join and will stand against those troublemakers?

But they'll only "protect" those in the RTK...the stand alone and wonder why bit.

 

I haven't seen anything official from RTK and what their stance is and what they propose to do.

 

I do somewhat agree RTK is a fans voice and needs to act in some manner officially. Even if it is symbolic. But I would hope it wouldn't be, that they through their weight behind the issue before we all get tarred.

[owenthomas]

I do somewhat agree RTK is a fans voice and needs to act in some manner officially.

RTK has f'all to do with my voice!

 

although i can't remember what it was inparticular that got my back up when it first came about - i felt that it was starting to create a bit of a divide between us locals and people from out of town (which is something that pisses me off in the extreme).. after the initial reading of their stuff it soon became apparent that it was a load of s*** so i've steered clear of it since..

[johngibo YPC]

Nowt wrong with lashing abit of ale round!!

[fabfive]

RTK has f'all to do with my voice!

 

although i can't remember what it was inparticular that got my back up when it first came about - i felt that it was starting to create a bit of a divide between us locals and people from out of town (which is something that pisses me off in the extreme).. after the initial reading of their stuff it soon became apparent that it was a load of s*** so i've steered clear of it since..

 

It's reasonable to assume not every Liverpool supporter goes along lock step with RTK.

 

However, they do have the clubs ear. Do have a number of supporters following their every move. So it is also logical as a "formal" organization which works with the club that they don't sit on the fence on this issue.

[cymrococh]

Nowt wrong with lashing abit of ale round!!

It's a weird thing to pick up on, seeing as it happens all the time.

[johngibo YPC]

"The lashing ale around and the general acting-the-c***-Mingland-type behaviour is something we have long taken pride in distancing ourselves from. But the writing?s been on the wall for some time, and it?s not just the out of town influence."

 

i tried to distance myself from it, but didn't move quick enough and got bloody covered in it anyway!!

All OOTers obviously!

[JohnnyH]

"The lashing ale around and the general acting-the-c***-Mingland-type behaviour is something we have long taken pride in distancing ourselves from. But the writing?s been on the wall for some time, and it?s not just the out of town influence."

 

i tried to distance myself from it, but didn't move quick enough and got bloody covered in it anyway!!

All OOTers obviously!

 

Incorrect. As an OOTer I was actually trying to catch the beer and put it back in my empty cans for later.

[D.Boon]

FWIW i think most of that article is small minded b******s

[berdoing]

This isn't specifically addressed to the person who wrote the piece, but it set me thinking...

 

Too many Scousers believe Scousers can do no wrong. Too many believe they can get away with most things because of the insular attitude that they are the perennial outsiders and they "aren't a part of England", hence they can set their own rules.

 

It was Liverpudlians who were causing most of the aggro in Athens, scallies one and all - they were doing the same in Eindhoven, they do it wherever they think they can get away with it - ie, not in England. Every town has their scallies, but Liverpool celebrates theirs a lot more than most, it's that cheeky Scouse charm etc...

 

If it had been Everton in the final (try and suspend belief there for a moment) the problem would have been the same. They have the same kind of hardcore following all with the same attitudes and ideals, it's just they support the other club in the city.

 

Now people will say "what about the Mancs? what about Chelsea?"... well, as I said, they all have their problems too, and in many cases a lot worse than ours - and don't get me started on other parts of Europe. But we can't deal with those problems... we can deal with Liverpool's problems, though.

 

The RTK was well meant but it has been hijacked to the extreme now. It has to stop. Most of the people who bunked their way in don't even go to the games normally, but they have found a cause to champion and an excuse to fall back on.

 

Of course, the whole thing wouldn't have escalated to such a level had UEFA got half a brain cell between them - and how telling their quick aboutface has been today - but it just gave the scallies the excuse they needed.

 

And for what it's worth, I live in Merseyside and work in Liverpool and have been to every European away in two years, so it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Edited June 4, 2007 by berdoing

[sutty]

This isn't specifically addressed to the person who wrote the piece, but it set me thinking...

 

There's an inherent danger with all generalisations...

 

The initial post is guilty of doing it and so is yours.

[owenthomas]

It was Liverpudlians who were causing most of the aggro in Athens, scallies one and all - they were doing the same in Eindhoven, they do it wherever they think they can get away with it - ie, not in England. Every town has their scallies, but Liverpool celebrates theirs a lot more than most, it's that cheeky Scouse charm etc...

there's a huge difference between 'cheeky Scouse charm' (if there is such as thing other than in joey Boswell!) and the cheeky little scruffy rodents that went about charging police cordons/robbing tickets/bunking in to the game in Athens (or pop up anywhere abroad)..

 

also, for the record, of course it was mostly Liverpudlians who were causing the aggro -the club is from Liverpool and so locals obviously will go.. the original article, pointing out anything to do with people from out of town, is just fkin pathetic.. it doesn't matter where you're from if you go the game and act the way these c**** do you're a scumbag regardless of where you were born..