JRC

Only applies to O'Neil I'd say

I can perhaps see the 'control' thing - he's clearly intelligent and independant minded. The baby incident somewhat confirms that, but I'd be surprised if that alone was the cause of Rafa's issues (should they exist). However, a drink problem - I can't even comprehend that as a possibility, although that may say more about my preconceptions than anything else.

Wasn't that when Granada Reports/Gerald Sinstadt ran their 'The Party's Over' piece, bizarrely (and prematurely) gloating in the 'demise' of the most succesful club in the region - at the Christmas when we were 11th, Corrigan having been bottled at the Kop End in a home defeat to City? Our run from there was so spectacular, I think we actually won the league with a handful of games left even. As an auld-a***, 75-76 was special - the real breakthrough year with a fantatstic UEFA Cup win (after being 2-0 down to Bruges at home in 30 minutes, winning 3-2), and the genuinely insane trip to Wolves for the last match - over 50,000 must have travelled, most got in, and we all partied on the blocked M6 on the way back - to see the first of so many title wins under Paisley.

If you're so keen to use the 'facts' to present your argument, why the need for describing a cash plus players deal as 'like a cheap Arthur Daley'? Are such deals so unusual? Was Luis Garcia going to AM whilst Torres came here another example? Is making offers we think appropriate, and in our interest, 'half arsed stabs at a fee' or the rght way to do business? Is describing this as 'half arsed' and 'dicking around' part of your 'facts' argument? Did O'Neil really say no thank you after Benitez notified his interest, or did he open the door for the formal offer that followed - and did he not then go public about it (the press 'get wind' of all sorts, right and wrong, and it doesn't amount to much unless either club confirms it)? Did Gerrard reallly 'blert' (sic) it out, or was he asked about a publicly acknowledged transfer offer we had made? And no-one is arguing that O'Neil has to give us what we want, but the way he has backed himself into a corner with Barry, and now this ludicrous suggestion of imposing a 'deadline', makes him look like he is out of his depth.

Double Games Queen (4,5)

9?

Crass response that effectively proves the point Archangel made against you. Sadly, this ad hominem stuff seems to be the standard dismissal to anyone on here who doesn't unquestioningly and blindly follow the party line on each and every criticism of G&H's mainy failings

Bit harsh, that. Arsenal performance suggested he has the capability, although of course we can't judge his consistency at that level yet.

As with Torres last year, the inclusion of a third party (Garcia/Finnan) at an undisclosed price could well be the basis for a fudge that allows both sides to claim their expectations have been met. MON is currently talking deal (and walking it - the ban, Sidwell etc.) while maintaining a hardball position publicly on the fee; we're just not budging on price - yet talks, proposals and counter-proposals are ongoing. There's a muddied and non-transparent conclusion around the corner, I'm sure - and we may never know the real price paid, other than not as much as MON will claim (I suspect we'll not say anything much about the fee)

A criminal failing in someone with his pace (and true of Bellamy also). One that, apparently, drove Rafa to distraction as he tried to coach him - without much success - on running across the line, Rush style, before breaking AFTER the pass is struck. That's AFTER, Djibril. AFTER!!

That's a great call. Football fans 'd'un age certain' will never forget Netzer's majestic orchestration of the demolition of a good, if prosaic, England team at Wembley. Perhaps not as dynamic as Gerrard, he certainly didn't lack for physical presence; probably a better passer, but my estimation of how good Gerrard would be in Italy is based on the style allowing him more time to make his passes, much as the speed of the game in the 70's allowed Netzer to stroke it around.

True, but perhaps more to do with maturity, adapting to the PL levels of pace & energy etc, or learning the ropes Rafa-style than any fundamental positional distractions. Maybe he won't ever consistently reproduce his off-the-bench form over 90 minutes, but the fact that he has that form in his locker suggests we can still remain hopeful.

I always thought Nedved had something of Gerrards all-action style about him - (or vice-versa) - but he was never the kind of turbo-charged warrior-athlete we have in Gerrard. That type of player was something we were more used to seeing in German teams, but I suppose the fact that Viera (admittedly past his imperious peak) or Sissoko are plying their trade in Serie A suggests the Italians may be heading in the same direction. I'm not concerned that he's going anywhere soon (although one of the Sunday Supplement no-marks was claiming, 100%, that he'd be off next season unless we win the league, almost implying he'd go to Chelsea or Manu), but I do believe he would be absolutely awesome in Italy.

True, and almost certainly one who would get consistently hammered on forums like this, or by the ignorant loudmouths in the Moan Stand, if he were playing today - always did his work quietly and impressively (including, as someone has already pointed out, a genuinely ruthless and vicious streak - he was our real enforcer, not McMahon), and selected the right pass, short or long, always available, never shirked, could definitely dictate and affect the game tempo, never looked for attention, tactically astute and appreciated by managers (ironically, Benitez would have loved him - outstanding 'Game Intelligence'). tbf, he took a fair amount of stick even at the time. Comparisons with Alonso's situation are not invalid - early Whelan was a free running attacking midfielder with a shed load of quality goals in him. the 'New Peter Doherty' (ask your Grandad), but when he moved back into a real and crucial engine room role, he was never forgiven for not being that flashier player anymore, despite what he was contributing. Historical note: I personally date our decline from invincibility as starting at exactly the point at the start of the 2nd Half in the Crystal Palace semi-final when some nomark Full Back tricked Ronnie then left him struggling for pace to cross for their first goal, something Ronnie normally never would allow. It was a dreadful epiphany, a harbinger for the future. Still chills me.

I am, and you can claim your £5. But ignore the discursive stuff, I'll ask the question again (not as some kind of rhetorical trick, genuinely straight). In terms of possible impact on results only, would you rather we didn't go through the same kind of stuff again next year, or would you not be bothered? Because I'd rather not take the risk if it can be avoided.

So would you be, purely in terms of the possible impact on results on the pitch, completely relaxed about us going through a similar debacle next year? We're considering multi-person psychological variables here, like confidence, security, form, optimism etc. Sure there is no deterministic link to unequivocally ascribe our poor performances, form and results to the environment at the time, and yes, counter-instances and non-alignments that can argue against it. But fine line and all that, and converting just the should have won draws - City, Villa, Wigan - in that time, never mind the Utd or West Ham results - would have given our season a much - significantly, even - better look than it has, without making us champions. Like many on here, I think it unfair to make a definitive judgement on Rafa based on this season that doesn't take into account the potential negative impact of what went on (especially as I agree that, in totality, it has not been a 'bad' one - acceptable rather than great as you say). Acknowledging the potential impact is certainly no worse a kind of analysis than those which ascribe many of our failings to rotation, because of its impact on soft factors such as cohesion, awareness, confidence, security etc of the players. As to Grant/Chelsea, surely a closer comparison is to Chelsea's performances and results when there was beind the scenes turmoil and Mourinho was being undermined and pushed towards the door by the Owner? Would the league now be theirs but for that? We can't say for sure, but it's not an unreasonable line of thought; and like I say, I'd rather we didn't go through any of that cr*p next year, just in case.

It is also true that public knowledge of any revelations or conflicts may differ significantly from the real-time experience of the participants. At what point did Rafa feel most threatened and under pressure, if at all? How much and when did the players start to feel that Rafa might be going soon? At what point did Rafa realizee he was untouchable etc? Not necessarily the time we learnt about it. And even if we knew exactly, it is not realistic to expect a direct correlation between 'shenanigans' and 'performance' on a game-by-game basis. But even with that doubt, I'd still prefer, for Football reasons alone, that we don't go through something similar next year, and wonder if those that don't accept that there may be a 'shenanigans'/'performance' causal relationship would be prepared to say that, for Football reasons alone, they wouldn't be bothered if we did.

I suspect that rational argument doesn't cut it with this guy, but a couple of points.. Answer this: How many people without tickets went to Hillsbrough to the semi final trying to get it? Answer that if you would and try and answer it honestly Point him at that recent article that was on RAWK, I think; they quoted the HSE estimates of people in the ground - and nail the 'hundreds with no tickets' argument (something like 24 people over capacity went through the gates as the highest possible estimate). I'd never seen these numbers before, and they are damning of any counter argument; any other assessment of how many people in the chaos outside did or did not have tickets could, by definition, have only been speculative, and necessarily prejudiced. As to All the reports that made it everyone elses fault are just typical government b******s. The very essence of how it happened. If he really was English and aware of how these things work, does he really believe that under Thatcher, the government would go out of its way to avoid blaming football fans for a disaster? (Especially if they are from Liverpool?)

Overall, I think that's true, and even that the latter part of the season has made it feel like a pretty good one (especially for mine eyes to have seen the glory of the coming of Torres), the big question is clearly what we need to do to bridge the gap, go that extra few points further. I know more quality always the answer, but it is to some extent tautologous - we get better by being better; whether or not the shenanigans undermined us, I think it was our lack of form Dec/Jan that cost us, although that is possibly amplified by the fact that both Chelsea and Manu lost points early on like us; if Arsenal were now about to claim the title, those early season dropped points may have seemed more crucial. We didn't have CL matches to worry about at that time, and played weakened teams in the FA Cup, yet our League form overall was poor (notwithstanding decent performances vs Bolton and Portsmouth). So is all we have to do is avoid extended poor spells like that? Or is it just a case of converting more draws into wins? Less rotation? Less caution? Or a better record vs the other Big 4? Or all of the above? I don't know, but whatever it takes, I would still wish that there is no period next season when the manager is fair game for negative press speculation, under threat of replacement or habitually referred to as a 'Dead Man Walking', because if it didn't cause, or even explain, some of our failings, I doubt very much that it helped.

All good discussions, but my original point was that we have performed better in the League this year when we also had the distraction of CL games - since Feb, for example, our League form has been very good, even with huge CL games coming thick and fast. The gap on the leaders mainly came when we didn't have any CL games. Whilst the overall argument about squad depth of quality (or lack of it) impacting our performances in all competitions seems strong over a whole season, this trend goes against it - you would expect our form in the league to be at its best in December and January. I'm not even sure we rotated or rested players as much in that period (other than for FA Cup games). I'm perfectly open to an alternative explanation, simply pointing out an apparent paradox.

The latest variant of the criticism of Rafa is that we do well in Europe because we are only concentrating on one competition, whereas Chelsea, Arsenal and ManU are going at it hammer and tongs in the league as well. Whilst there may be some merit in that in respect of the teams we could field in the league in the last couple of weeks, this season it doesn't really hold up. I know we dropped some silly points in the first part of the season, but we certainly weren't 'concentrtating' on the CL at that point. The truth is that we only lost our first game a couple of days prior to our last Group stage CL game; that Reading game was a clear example of CL priorities taking precedence over the League, with Torres and Gerrard going off, but given the apparent ultimatum to Rafa, and the importance of qualifying vs the possibility of retrieving a 3-1 deficit, maybe those priorities can be rationalized. Even so, as we won that Marseille game in early December 2007, we were definitely still in contention in the League - 6 points and a game in hand behind United was it? We may even have been ahead of Chelsea - they'd both dropped points early on as well, only Arsenal (and City) were forging ahead. In the following 10 weeks or so when we didn't have any CL distractions - that's where we lost it. The Barnsley defeat was our nadir, barely 3 days before we re-started in the CL with the win vs Inter. Since that point, we have been one of the form teams in the league, apart from the performance at OT. So maybe - it's not that we can't compete on 2 fronts; the evidence this season is that we competed better in the League when we had the CL matches to consider as well.

He looked rusty on Saturday - I've rarely seen him as much at sea as when Kapo turned him; and he was partially at fault for the first goal, he didn't pick up Forsell's fairly straightforward run-around. Sadly, he looks to me like a classic example of a player being rapidly undermined by serious injury; like he just got real old, real quick.

Sami's oggy at Woodison was because he chose the wrong foot to clear with...but he's a legend, so unlikely to get the Dog's abuse over umpteen pages for it. For me, JAR has not been up to it for a season and more now, and can go on the summer, with some very happy memories for me of his time here. But as he is still needed for the next 5 games, he should have our support. Fwiw, if I was Rafa, I'd play him tomorrow and make him Captain for the day. Win as a team, lose - or at least f*ck-up - as a team.

Yeah, I felt that he was really getting on Cole's t*ts on Tuesday - perhaps why he hacked him down -, and anyone who p*sses off the dreadful Cashley goes up a few notches in my book.