The Grey Area

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

"We are in danger of making Benitez becoming some sort of Martyr"

 

Someone said on this forum, or something to that affect, I think it was Elisha Scott, and I have to admit I see where he is coming from

 

I am absolutely both devasted and fustrated at the current situation we find our club in, on one hand we have two Americans selling the club down the river and on the other we have a manager who is being treated badly, but yet is showing no results for me to show any substantional sympathy.

 

Reading this forum and RAWK recently, I have come to realise that there does seem to be some truth in what he said, you look at what Benitez done this year, and to be fair it's been average at best, his decisions on the pitch have been as wacky unfounded and down right fustrating as the American's decisions off it and people are ignoring this in my opinion due to what is happening at the top level at the club.

 

I ask, would we be so forgiving to Benitez if the stadium had went ahead and to put it in GG's words 'A Spade in the ground' (something to that effect), would we be so forgiving if essentially the yanks had kept their promises?

 

Would that march v Porto have happend?

 

In my opinion there seems to be a line being created by some sections of Liverpool fans and it's starting to widen in and get abit nasty, I believe in some sections of our fans we are using the mistreatment of Benitez as a stick to batter GG and TH with , but how that stick has been beaten so much we are hitting the core. I won't throw in the same old arguments with Benitez because it's been heard before, but I must ask, Why is Benitez key to our success when all things considered on the pitch he hasn't been a success on the pitch this season, yes he has been undermined, yes he has been poorly treated, but all things considered the mistakes made by Benitez on the pitch in regards to tactics I.E Systems and formations, is this down to The yanks and Parry?, it isn't really when you think about it some of Benitez's decisions are questionable, and I won't insult you all by telling you which ones,

 

Fact is we are 4th in the league, 12 points off top and out the league and have been for a few months, yanks or no yanks you would of hoped with the squad Benitez has at his disposal we would of be doing alot better than we are now.

 

I heard theres a rally in support of Benitez tonight, I am going the match, will I be a part of this rally? Depends really, Thats not to say I won't sing Benitez's name on the kop mind, I just think a rally to save a manager whose managerial performances this season have been nothing better than JAR's contribution at Left back is both desperate and questionable. I hope it's more about getting the Yanks out of our club, rather than using the 'Benitez' stick because the only thing the fans should be unified is getting the yanks out of our club and in my opinion the fans view on Benitez is anything but.

[honourablegeorge]

I'd agree in part - if Benitez had delivered what he's delivered this season whilst enjoying the full suport of the board, I'd be disappointed, and critical. I wouldn't want him sacked mis season, but he'd most certainly have been under a critical gaze come the summer, and if he failed to reach the CL at a minimum, I'd say he might be on the way out. That said, his previous work would proably have earned him another season, and probably deservedly so.

 

But to me, those points are moot. The fact is, he's been operating with a knife in his back for the last two months. And the wider issue of the broken promises, the lies, mismanagement & outright fraud being perpetrated by the yanks, and their underminign of everythign the club stands for - that to me is a far bigger issue than a disappointing sequence of draws.

[Kahnee]

What sort of martyr, though? Are there even different sorts?

[Magic8Ball]

I'll say something different to most:

Despite this undermining and potential loss of authority, if Rafa wins a cup, and/or finishes 4th or higher, he will still be manager next year (provided he doesnt keep reminding the owners of their shortcomings/broken promises).

 

I think there are 2 parties here, the owner and the fans.

 

Rafa is a reasonable representative of the fans, he wants to win things, the CL and the PL - so he pushes for resources to compete at the top table, as that's the only way in the short term we can do that.

 

Then there are the owners, who actually just need Liverpool to stay in the top 4 and have a reasonable run in the CL and PL. They don't care if we win, as they just need to be at the lucrative end of the sport to sell TV rights etc.

 

What the owners want is ANY manager who can keep liverpool in the top 4 and keep his mouth shut. What the fans want is a manager who will win things.

[Rich Gobey]

I'd hate to see how some people would react if we had an actual run of bad results, not just a few draws.

 

Careful what you wish for Mr 'Warrier', Benitez might just be the last decent manager we hire for years - ever thought of that?

[Extraordinary Swindle]

Fact is we are 4th in the league, 12 points off top and out the league and have been for a few months, yanks or no yanks you would of hoped with the squad Benitez has at his disposal we would of be doing alot better than we are now.

Prior to all the shyte kicking off we were 6 points off the top of the league. We've only been out of the running due to the poor run of league form recently.

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

I'll say something different to most:

Despite this undermining and potential loss of authority, if Rafa wins a cup, and/or finishes 4th or higher, he will still be manager next year (provided he doesnt keep reminding the owners of their shortcomings/broken promises).

 

I think there are 2 parties here, the owner and the fans.

 

Rafa is a reasonable representative of the fans, he wants to win things, the CL and the PL - so he pushes for resources to compete at the top table, as that's the only way in the short term we can do that.

 

Then there are the owners, who actually just need Liverpool to stay in the top 4 and have a reasonable run in the CL and PL. They don't care if we win, as they just need to be at the lucrative end of the sport to sell TV rights etc.

 

What the owners want is ANY manager who can keep liverpool in the top 4 and keep his mouth shut. What the fans want is a manager who will win things.

 

Theres the split

 

Personally I believe if people want 4TH place regardless of who the owners are, Benitez will get us there or there about, which he has done, we have yet to maintain a title challenge, I know it's not nice seeing the manager with a knife in his back but at the end of the day his decisions are questionable.

 

If Benitez was winning at home to Brum, Wigan and Away to Reading (And thats being nice I'd be behind him 100% and I'll be at the front of that Rafa march, but I can't help but feel if I went I'd be a hypocrit. I'm far from 100% behind him, and I'm far from confident he can put up a challenge for the league, never mind winning the thing.

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

I'd hate to see how some people would react if we had an actual run of bad results, not just a few draws.

 

Careful what you wish for Mr 'Warrier', Benitez might just be the last decent manager we hire for years - ever thought of that?

 

The only thing I am wishing for is for the yanks to be out and the DIC to come back in.

 

The whole thing with Benitez as I mentioned previously is irrelevant at the moment.

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

Prior to all the shyte kicking off we were 6 points off the top of the league. We've only been out of the running due to the poor run of league form recently.

 

The Draws at home v Spurs, Brum and Away to Portsmouth have affected us more than you give credit.

[Rich Gobey]

The only thing I am wishing for is for the yanks to be out and the DIC to come back in.

 

The whole thing with Benitez as I mentioned previously is irrelevant at the moment.

 

Why not answer my question?

 

BTW if 'The whole thing with Benitez as I mentioned previously is irrelevant at the moment' then why start a thread about your flaky support for him?

Edited January 15, 2008 by Gobez

[smicer07]

Benitez deserves to be a martyr on the back of 2005 alone.

[yellow jumper]

i don't believe there are any grounds for sacking him.

 

i think he's over-achieved massively in europe. and that in winning an fa cup and out-performing wenger in successive seasons he's shown considerable progress domestically, from the point at which he took over. i think last season we plateaued and this season (with extentuating circumstances) we look like under-achieving slightly, notwithstanding a good run in the cups.

 

i think he's made mistakes, but that he's got far more right. i also think, contrary to a lot of opinion, he's shown flexibility in his approach, and a willingness to address things that have gone wrong in previous seasons. pre-season training, away form, lack of goals, more quality on the ball from the back, and a ruthlessness in moving underperforming players on. i think sometimes you have to accept steps backwards happen, and that the manager is doing his upmost to build something positive.

 

i think it is possible to challenge for the league with the current squad if everything goes right, but i also accept that united and chelsea have better quality than us, and that arsenal have a young and talented team that have had many years to develop under wenger.

[Rich Gobey]

Benitez deserves to be a martyr on the back of 2005 alone.

 

Nah, we'll get to the CL final every other year no matter whos in charge.

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

Why not answer my question?

 

I just did, and I said It's irrelevant, what if the Americans sell up to the DIC, the DIC sack Benitez anyway and then we are back to square one?

 

As long as come August we can say we are in a safe position with new owners I can be happy, because either way we will have a class manager at the helm in Benitez or someone else like Mourinho.

 

Benitez isn't the be all end all of this club, it's the Americans that pose the biggest threat to the future success of this club. The only thing the fans should 'Unfied' in driving the Americans out of this club.

 

End Of

Edited January 15, 2008 by SpiritualWarrier

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

BTW if 'The whole thing with Benitez as I mentioned previously is irrelevant at the moment' then why start a thread about your flaky support for him?

 

To explain why it is so.

[Kahnee]

To explain why it is so.

 

That would imply we give a s***

[Extraordinary Swindle]

The Draws at home v Spurs, Brum and Away to Portsmouth have affected us more than you give credit.

Six points dropped. Since when is it a requirement to have a 100% record in the league going in to December in order to challenge for the league title?

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

Six points dropped. Since when is it a requirement to have a 100% record in the league going in to December in order to challenge for the league title?

 

It's not a requirement to have a 100% record.

 

The only requirement is that we challenge for the title all the way to the end.

 

Something we didn't do.

[Rimbeux]

Whatever realistically goes on this season, and whatever was going to go on results-wise, I always thought from the start that he had my backing till summer 09, two seasons of his team to see if he could challenge, he'd at least earned that. I had my reservations over how the new owners would see things, they come from a sporting culture where you dont really build long term success, it's very much season to season and systems are designed to make success cyclical.

 

Has that changed? Possibly. I'm now thinking about the best way forward until such time as it's even viable to change manager. By that I mean we have the funding available to change course for the better, not a change for it's own sake. I have major doubts there's the north of £120m net over the next three seasons it would take to rebuild and improve ahead of the stadium move. On that basis i think we should be seeing Benitez plan through at least next season.

 

Treated as a martyr? Not by me, not by quite a few. Possibly by some who's major issue with the owners is the treatment of the manager or the institution of the manager. It's wider than that for me, I genuinely feel and think their aims are not in line with having the leading football team on earth and every day they remain in charge we go further away from that aim.

[realtarragona]

I'd hate to see how some people would react if we had an actual run of bad results, not just a few draws.

 

Draws to Wigan, Middlesbrough, Luton etc aren't bad results?

Edited January 15, 2008 by realtarragona

[yellow jumper]

Something we didn't do.

 

what's a challenge? when was the last time we went into the last five games of the season with a chance of still winning the title?

[Guest SpiritualWarrier]

what's a challenge? when was the last time we went into the last five games of the season with a chance of still winning the title?

 

A challenge is being level peg or in the mix with your rivals, our rivals at the moment are Man City and Everton.

[yellow jumper]

A challenge is being level peg or in the mix with your rivals, our rivals at the moment are Man City and Everton.

 

firstly, the season isn't over. secondly, it's got nothing to do with rivals. thirdly, none of that really answers the question.

 

we finished ahead of arsenal (one of our rivals, presumably?) in the last two seasons, does that mean we challenged for the league? if not, when was the last time we did?

[Extraordinary Swindle]

As long as come August we can say we are in a safe position with new owners I can be happy, because either way we will have a class manager at the helm in Benitez or someone else like Mourinho.

That's quite an assumption to make.

 

Meanwhile back in this universe, G&H clearly don't have the same ambition as Benitez for Liverpool FC. What makes you think they will want to replace him with an equally ambitious manager? When the take over was taking place there was an alleged "war chest" of £50-60M set aside for purchasing players according to the new owners. The cracks in their relationship with Benitez appeared when he asked for the money to buy the players needed to put Liverpool back in contention - "Use the players you have" was Hicks' solution. Any new manager is going to want to strengthen the squad in order to challenge for the league title and then it's back to the current situation.

[Cobs]

we finished ahead of arsenal (one of our rivals, presumably?) in the last two seasons, does that mean we challenged for the league? if not, when was the last time we did?

1997