The Steven Gerrard question.

[Ronnie Whelan]

Originally posted by Rednik in the sticky thread

Unless you're suggesting a 5 man midfield, with 3 in the centre, I see no other way our central midfielders can be accomodated. Additionally, aside from Gerrard, none of our other central midfielders can play elsewhere (excluding Lucas as I've admittedly not seen much of him).

 

Last year accomodation was bit easier for Rafa because Momo had injuries, and Xabi's form dropped. This year, this may not be the case, and although Momo willbe off to Africa in the winter, we have another rising star added into the mix.

 

Given that Stevie G is almost always gonna be on the team list - I'd imagine most of his games will beon the right flank. Why do you disagree?

 

 

I disagree for the simple reason that he will no doubt play games in the centre. Without going into an over analysis of formations I can see SG playing in a traditional number 7 position if we do not bring in a link player of that type. With Garcia gone I think he and possibly Benayoun/Voronin who will fill that void against tighter defences, especially in Europe.

 

If we do bring in another three players, say two wingers and a R/L B we have so many possible starting 11's that teams wont know what to do against us. If everyone realises that Rafa will rotate depending on the opposition and the players are ready for such rotation then its certainly not a given that SG will start at RM. Again assuming we bring in a RM we will have him and Pennant to play in that position, giving Rafa the freedom to use SG more centerally. He was a terrific option in that position for the last couple of seasons but he is not by nature a winger in the traditional sense and if we are to progress we no longer will require players 'to do a job' in certain positions as we will have specialists to perform in each position. With more pressing wing play to come next season there will be, more than in recent seasons, a lot more breaking ball at the 18 yard, expect this to become (if its not already) 'gerrard territory'.

[MFletcher]

We have Sissoko, Mascherano, Alonso and Lucas in centre midfield. We have Torres, Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin up front.

 

The likelihood is that we'll play 4-4-2 with two of those four in central midfield, two of those four up front and Gerrard on the right.

 

Of course, Rafa will rotate, giving Alonso a break, bringing Gerrard into the centre, giving Pennant a game on the right. We'll also see the 4-2-3-1 on occasions (like against Arsenal), but that would involve dropping three strikers to accommodate Gerrard.

 

Whether we agree with it or not, Gerrard will be on the right more often than not next season.

 

Personally I think he's better there, because he has freedom to roam and Finnan can deliver an excellent cross when he moves forward. I think we're a much more solid team with Masch and Alonso in the middle - we completely control games then.

Edited July 6, 2007 by MFletcher

[Flasher]

We have far too many central midfielders.

 

 

......Masch.......Alonso

 

Gerrard....Kewell.....New Winger

.

............Torres

 

................vs

 

.............Crouch

 

Kuyt.......Veronin.........Pennant

 

.......Sissoko.....Lucas.

[beejay]

We have Sissoko, Mascherano, Alonso and Lucas in centre midfield. We have Torres, Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin up front.

 

The likelihood is that we'll play 4-4-2 with two of those four in central midfield, two of those four up front and Gerrard on the right.

 

Of course, Rafa will rotate, giving Alonso a break, bringing Gerrard into the centre, giving Pennant a game on the right. We'll also see the 4-2-3-1 on occasions (like against Arsenal), but that would involve dropping three strikers to accommodate Gerrard.

 

Whether we agree with it or not, Gerrard will be on the right more often than not next season.

 

Personally I think he's better there, because he has freedom to roam and Finnan can deliver an excellent cross when he moves forward. I think we're a much more solid team with Masch and Alonso in the middle - we completely control games then.

 

Unless, we buy Heinze and play 3 at the back with the width from 2 winger-backs, 3 in the middle and 2 strikers.

[RedNik]

But that is complete speculation and mind you unlikely, because not only do we not have Heinze (or really a third first choice CB, as Sami doesnt seem to be Rafa's), we also don't have wing backs on either flank. Maybe you could call Aurelio one, but thats only because he doesnt really fit any position on the left entirely.

[Frosty Jack]

Lucas has really good technique I think he might surprise, I can see him played anywhere across the midfield

[cymrococh]

We could sell Gerrard to pay for Torres.

[Flasher]

We could sell Gerrard to pay for Torres.

 

 

What would the net spend be?

[cymrococh]

What would the net spend be?

14.

[Lee W]

What would the net spend be?

 

Negative.

 

Even more unacceptable.

[RedNik]

I imagine we'd get more than 26 mill. for Gerrard, if we sold him.

 

 

Regarding Lucas - technical ablity isn't whats going to determine whether he will be effective on the flanks. Its style of play. Does he like to run at players or does he like sit deep and orchestrate. Does he like to link up play .. bla bla bla..

 

For example Xabi is a technically gifted player, superior to most. He certainly couldn't play anywhere but central mid (maybe centre back if Gh wanted...)

[Rimbeux]

It's a tough one for the manager, but maybe more straightforward than it has been.

 

Playing Gerrard in the hole, or right side has been about filling in weak positions, lack of attacking threat in the side and accomodating the better players in the starting line-up, Gerrard still clearly plays his best football in central midfield, with the structure that role gives his game, he is still the best central midfield player at the club.

 

I've not seen the boy Lucas, but we need a real central midfield attacking threat for 90% of our games where teams will sit back and wait. Alonso-Masch as a two wont give you that. Gerrard and either Masch or Alonso in a two would give you that, Gerrard in a genuine three would give you that, and not lose him in the hole.

 

Torres' addition gives the option of a lone striker who can hold it up and get in behind, the work of two men. If we can achieve 'wingers' who are genuine goal threats, who can play off a lone striker, that opens up genuine 4-3-3. This is more suited to the central midfield players we have than attempting 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard in lost in the hole which more often than not actually ends up as 4-4-1-1.

 

Whilst it would be nice to have 6 players in midfield and attack who could move about a play total football, we have the players we have, and they are suited to particular roles. I'd only pick out Gerrard and Kewell currently, and possibly Torres as guys able to switch positions with any credibility.

[Guest sniffer]

It's a tough one for the manager, but maybe more straightforward than it has been.

 

Playing Gerrard in the hole, or right side has been about filling in weak positions, lack of attacking threat in the side and accomodating the better players in the starting line-up, Gerrard still clearly plays his best football in central midfield, with the structure that role gives his game, he is still the best central midfield player at the club.

 

I've not seen the boy Lucas, but we need a real central midfield attacking threat for 90% of our games where teams will sit back and wait. Alonso-Masch as a two wont give you that. Gerrard and either Masch or Alonso in a two would give you that, Gerrard in a genuine three would give you that, and not lose him in the hole.

 

Torres' addition gives the option of a lone striker who can hold it up and get in behind, the work of two men. If we can achieve 'wingers' who are genuine goal threats, who can play off a lone striker, that opens up genuine 4-3-3. This is more suited to the central midfield players we have than attempting 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard in lost in the hole which more often than not actually ends up as 4-4-1-1.

 

Whilst it would be nice to have 6 players in midfield and attack who could move about a play total football, we have the players we have, and they are suited to particular roles. I'd only pick out Gerrard and Kewell currently, and possibly Torres as guys able to switch positions with any credibility.

 

I just hope we do NOT play Torres as a lone striker. He had enough of that at Madrid. I think he needs support up front playing for us.

[cymrococh]

For example Xabi is a technically gifted player, superior to most. He certainly couldn't play anywhere but central mid (maybe centre back if Gh wanted...)

GH would have played Xabi on the left.

[RedNik]

Nah, the left was reserved for strikers

[cymrococh]

Nah, the left was reserved for strikers

McAllister and Biscan would argue otherwise.

[realtarragona]

I was half expecting us to sell Sissoko. I don't see how we can accomodate them all unless we've signed the Brazilian player of the year just to keep him on the bench most of the time. And presumably we'll play at two strikers in most games otherwise we'll have the same problem there.

[RedNik]

Maybe theres a problem with the Mascherano deal .. and he isn't going to be signed after this season.

 

Rafa may have just re signed Momo to guarantee us a better fee - although I doubt he'd just lie to Momo about his role.

 

Alternatively, we may have just bought Lucas because of his quality and knowing that he's could well turn out to be a world beater - ie it was to good an opportunity to miss out on. What further complicates this is that they're all young.

[Ronnie Whelan]

What further complicates this is that they're all young.

 

 

What a quandary!

 

 

Its great that we have them all. Assuming that they all know they will be rested for certain games then we should be fine and that includes Gerrard.

[RedNik]

They may know, but long run, are they happy - thats another thing.

[Guz]

I just hope there's nothing wrong with the Mascherano deal and that he will be ours for years to come. I've got no problems playing Gerrard on the right and if it means by the end of this season we have four established central midfielders (Momo, Xabi, Masch, Lucas) plus Gerrard then I'd be delighted.

 

I've said for a long time that despite the comparisons with Keane/Vieira etc. Gerrard reminds me most of Pavel Nedved and I think that's the sort of role Rafa sees him in.

[fred milne]

I've not seen the boy Lucas, but we need a real central midfield attacking threat for 90% of our games where teams will sit back and wait. Alonso-Masch as a two wont give you that.

I think Alonso can get a respectable goal-tally if he has Mascherano behind him. (There were encouraging signs of this at the tail-end of last season.)

 

Remember Arsenal won the league playing Vieira with the likes of Petit and Gilberto none of whom were a McDermott or a Lampard.

 

Even last year, Scholes only got 6 league goals for Utd. (Alonso got 4 for us playing behind Sissoko and Gerrard for the mostpart.)

Edited July 6, 2007 by fred milne

[genghis]

I was half expecting us to sell Sissoko. I don't see how we can accomodate them all unless we've signed the Brazilian player of the year just to keep him on the bench most of the time. And presumably we'll play at two strikers in most games otherwise we'll have the same problem there.

 

 

Maybe theres a problem with the Mascherano deal .. and he isn't going to be signed after this season.

 

Rafa may have just re signed Momo to guarantee us a better fee - although I doubt he'd just lie to Momo about his role.

 

Alternatively, we may have just bought Lucas because of his quality and knowing that he's could well turn out to be a world beater - ie it was to good an opportunity to miss out on. What further complicates this is that they're all young.

 

I think as Negativland said elsewhere, we may be surprised by where Lucas plays. I gather he's a leftie, and pretty mobile, so I'd imagine he could be a rather useful left-mid, even if he's not going to be a line-hugging winger. A left-sided Gerrard if you like

(No pressure)

 

Oh - I've just remembered who we last said that about (shudder).

Edited July 6, 2007 by genghis

[RedNik]

Personally, if we bought a good right winger, I wouldnt mind Gerrard on the left. Most of the perks from him playing on the right (ie less defensive responsibility, roaming etc.) would still hold. We'd lose the early crosses he puts in, but he would be able to cut in and shoot .. think that would better suit him.

[Rimbeux]

I think Alonso can get a respectable goal-tally if he has Mascherano behind him. (There were encouraging signs of this at the tail-end of last season.)

 

Remember Arsenal won the league playing Vieira with the likes of Petit and Gilberto none of whom were a McDermott or a Lampard.

 

Even last year, Scholes only got 6 league goals for Utd. (Alonso got 4 for us playing behind Sissoko and Gerrard for the mostpart.)

 

 

It's not just about goals, it's about instinct, mobility, threat. Alonso is a fine player and striker of the ball, but I don't see him bursting past people, getting up and down the pitch in a hurry or popping up where Scholes traditionally does with his finishing ability (it was a poor yr goals wise for him, hung back a lot more most likely, getting on).