Shackles on Gerrard

[Ombudsam]

Do you think that if we put the 2003-4 season Gerrard in CM then we'd be better. He was unplayable for the second half of that season. Or do you think last season's gerrard was better considering he got 23 goals compared to the other one's 6 or whatever.

[Rimbeux]

It's actually a fact that Gerrard scores more when in central midfield, but it's also true that the manager needs to get his best players midfielders on the pitch whilst keeping enough bodies up front. Personally, I think it's up to Pennant

[Swipe]

It's actually a fact that Gerrard scores more when in central midfield, but it's also true that the manager needs to get his best players midfielders on the pitch whilst keeping enough bodies up front. Personally, I think it's up to Pennant

 

I think Benitez will bring in Alves or another winger in jan/summer.

 

Then Stevie can be moved centrally.

 

It seems clear Rafa doesn't trust anyone as much as he trusts SG in the wide right position. I don't think Pennant will ever be good enough to be a first choice for that position, but we'll see. If he continues to look out of his depth, I have no doubts Rafa will bring someone else in

[Ombudsam]

It's actually a fact that Gerrard scores more when in central midfield, but it's also true that the manager needs to get his best players midfielders on the pitch whilst keeping enough bodies up front. Personally, I think it's up to Pennant

 

It is up to penannt. But my point was that even if gerrard plays central now he doesn't play it how he played it in the latter half of 2003-4. The closest I can remember was v Wigan last year. I was just wondering if that was a benefit.

[Rimbeux]

It is up to penannt. But my point was that even if gerrard plays central now he doesn't play it how he played it in the latter half of 2003-4. The closest I can remember was v Wigan last year. I was just wondering if that was a benefit.

 

 

Nobody could play like that week in week out season after season, they'd burn out. What was clear at the time is still true, Gerrard needed to work on using his energy wisely, and the team needed to improve so as to leave no need for him to be everywhere at once. There were many times last year when the midfield was the best it's been for years, both with Gerrard on the right AND in the centre. That had alot to do with the form of the other three players in there also.

[Fenderbaum]

I really think one of the reasons Gerrard played so well (2003-4) then was because we had Murphy on the right and he stepped inside to fill the holes Gerrard left when he went forward.

 

If we play with wingers and Gerrard in the middle we leave ourselves open to counters through the centre of the pitch, last seen against Galatasary.

 

If we're to see the best of Gerrard through the middle, the balance of the midfield has to re thought.

[Swipe]

Gerrard and Didi were great in the middle

[Benitez]

I still think he's better for us as a right midfielder and tbh, I'm often bemused by the fuss it causes. I have seen little this season in the few games he's played centrally to suggest he needs moving back there right at this time. I think Sissoko and Alonso are a better partnership. And you need to play your best players, so I don't see why we drop one of them for gerrard. Therefore, play him in his best position - right midfield, with a licence to roam.

 

That season where he had a few great months centrally seems an age ago. And I don't think he could sustain that sort of play (he didn't the season after where he played more centrally). Plus he wasn't particularly diciplined in his play at a younger age and was making up for others deficiences - maybe that actually accentuated his 'un-playable' nature. Now he doesn't need to do that, so he needs to find a way to play a role in this team rather than the other way round - and he did so last season, which again makes me laugh at the crazy notions that his lack of form is cos he's playing at right midield. He needs to dig himself out of this bad dip of form, although to his credit - there are good signs that is now happening.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Benitez

[Chili Palmer]

The Gerrard of 03/04 is not the player we have now, his workrate has dropped, he is no longer a box to box player, he is a 'luxury' player nowdays. Still brilliant but in a different way.

 

He would need to score alot of goals if he plays in the middle because I'd bet we would concede alot aswell.

[yellow jumper]

no. we scraped fourth in 03/04, the only notable victory in the latter period of that season was the 1-0 over united at old trafford, and we effectively played a 4-5-1 that day. the 3-0 at birmingham was good too. we also lost to charlton and drew with fulham at home in the same period, were thumped by arsenal away. went out of uefa and fa cups relatively early at the hands of marseille and pompey.

 

gerrard might have looked brilliant, but generally speaking the team didn't. i think it's best to judge our (and, for that matter, his) progress at the end of the season. he hit the post yesterday after arriving from the left wing, and was involved in the third goal bursting through the middle. he's hardly ever stuck out on the right wing, and has largely been playing exceptionally from that starting position.

[McBain]

I dont think it's a coincidence that neither his club nor country manager plays him in the middle. He doesn't have the discipline in his game to play centrally in a 442. The better he's become going forward the harder it's become to play him in that role, as he doesn't do the same level of work going back

 

Once Alonso rediscovers his form all this talk will go away. But because our central mids aren't playing well atm it's natural to think that putting Gerrard back in there will solve things.

Edited October 29, 2006 by Mcbain

[Rimbeux]

The Gerrard of 03/04 is not the player we have now, his workrate has dropped, he is no longer a box to box player, he is a 'luxury' player nowdays. Still brilliant but in a different way.

 

He would need to score alot of goals if he plays in the middle because I'd bet we would concede alot aswell.

 

luxury player my a***

 

 

In a league where Scholes and Fabregas can function perfectly well in two man midfields, I find it odd that there's some opinion that Gerrard is a liability there

[_00_deathscar]

I dont think it's a coincidence that neither his club nor country manager plays him in the middle

 

Club yes, but country?

 

McClaren just sticks him out on the right because it's clear as day to everyone that Gerrard + Lampard in a central two doesn't work, and he can't drop either player.

 

I doubt McClaren has thought as far ahead as 'it leaves us exposed through the middle'

[yellow jumper]

luxury player my a***

In a league where Scholes and Fabregas can function perfectly well in two man midfields, I find it odd that there's some opinion that Gerrard is a liability there

 

fabregas doesn't play in a 2 man midfield. v.persie has been starting left. with fabregas, silva, hleb, rosicky the other four.

[Rimbeux]

Club yes, but country?

 

McClaren just sticks him out on the right because it's clear as day to everyone that Gerrard + Lampard in a central two doesn't work, and he can't drop either player.

 

I doubt McClaren has thought as far ahead as 'it leaves us exposed through the middle'

 

 

Also I could have sworn that Gerrard, the liability that he is, was perfectly able to sit deep in midfield and allow Lampard to get forward miss chance after chance. That debate was not 'England look weak in the middle', it was how can England get the benefit of both players full powers.

[Chili Palmer]

luxury player my a***

In a league where Scholes and Fabregas can function perfectly well in two man midfields, I find it odd that there's some opinion that Gerrard is a liability there

 

We are not talking about Scholes or Fabregas. He can be a liability in the middle, he gets caught too far upfield. Sissoko and Xabi are a much better midfield partnership.

[McBain]

Club yes, but country?

 

McClaren just sticks him out on the right because it's clear as day to everyone that Gerrard + Lampard in a central two doesn't work, and he can't drop either player.

 

I doubt McClaren has thought as far ahead as 'it leaves us exposed through the middle'

 

As you say, Gerrard and Lampard doesn't work, but it's because one of them has to drop back and do the donkey work in front of the back four, and neither of them are either willing or able to do it. Similar to when he plays with Xabi. That's not to say that Alonso isn't disciplined, but he's not a water carrier, he's someone who gets his water carried for him

[Guz]

I still maintain Stevie's best season was when he literally carried that team in 03/04. He could do everything and did everything. But he's a different player now. His best work 3 years ago would be in the middle third of the pitch and occasionaly around the area. Now his best work is in the final third of the pitch and has Xabi/Momo to do a lot of the work he did earlier, in the middle. That doesn't mean he can't play in the centre but the best role for the team, at the moment, is probably the way he is playing at the moment. But for that to work the central players have to play well and they haven't been so far this season.

 

If there's a comparison to be made with any player then it's Pavel Nedved. The days of Stevie being like Keane, or to a lesser extent Vieira, bossing the middle of the pitch are gone because he's changed as a footballer and becoming more specialised in what he can do.

[Rimbeux]

fabregas doesn't play in a 2 man midfield. v.persie has been starting left. with fabregas, silva, hleb, rosicky the other four.

 

 

 

He has done this seaon and last, perhaps it helps that Arsenals wide players dont hug the line. I saw yesterdays game, and dont disagree with you that RvP did move around, but look at the players you list, only Silva could be called a defensive or holding player. I also watched ManU on another screen go to Bolton with Giggs, Scholes, Carrick and Ronaldo across the middle, and rip them a new a***.

 

 

Perhaps this is just me, but I don't think it's essential to play double pivot in the premiership, as two of the leading sides rarely do. From that, I also don't agree that Gerrard is some kind of liability in a two man midfield. It's a good debate, because it's clear that two siitting gives you more cover, but it can also give you less opportunities.

 

It's also interesting that you have two managers in Ferguson and Wenger who will often leave central defenders two v two with the oppo strikers, and work toward them being quick enough and good enough to cope whilst believing they will create and score more the other end. You also have two managers in Rafa and Mourinho who work on the basis of cutting off the danger before it arrives, sometimes at the expense of numbers going forward, but backing the attacking players to take their chances, knowing they wont concede many. Both have been very successful.

[Swipe]

United look fantastic at the moment.

 

Their midfield and attack is the best in the league right now. So many options.

[Ombudsam]

no. we scraped fourth in 03/04, the only notable victory in the latter period of that season was the 1-0 over united at old trafford, and we effectively played a 4-5-1 that day. the 3-0 at birmingham was good too. we also lost to charlton and drew with fulham at home in the same period, were thumped by arsenal away. went out of uefa and fa cups relatively early at the hands of marseille and pompey.

 

wasn't a lot of that to do with the rest of the players being rubbish and demotivated and the manager running out of ideas.

 

If gerrard is to stay right anyway, Sissoko needs to learn how to be better in the final 1/3. That is one of the main problems

[Rimbeux]

We are not talking about Scholes or Fabregas. He can be a liability in the middle, he gets caught too far upfield. Sissoko and Xabi are a much better midfield partnership.

 

 

And those two are not?

 

 

Granted Gerrard can be in the box when an attack breaks down, so there wont be two men in midfield to cover the counter, but that's the game you play, just as you wouldn't get too much attacking threat from Xabi and Momo. On one hand you could look at how many you coould stop, on the other how many you could score. Better depends what you are after

Edited October 29, 2006 by Rimbeux

[Swipe]

wasn't a lot of that to do with the rest of the players being rubbish and demotivated and the manager running out of ideas.

 

If gerrard is to stay right anyway, Sissoko needs to learn how to be better in the final 1/3. That is one of the main problems

 

I agree. When SG is not in the team, and Sissoko and Xabi play in the middle, we look very unimaginitive.

[Ombudsam]

United look fantastic at the moment.

 

Their midfield and attack is the best in the league right now. So many options.

 

alright, calm down

[Swipe]

alright, calm down

 

 

They shouldn't look that good though.

 

Mediocre players like Carrick, Fletcher and O'Shea are often in the starting line-up and they still look excellent.

 

 

The return of Scholes has made a big difference to them.